does it make you mad when people with no college education..

Ahriakin

It's all about knowledge and how well you apply it, not where you got it from. The quality of the source from which you gain it can only be judged by how relevant it is and how well it has prepared you for what you do. Imho the levels of abstraction between the source and application go something like College - Vendor Cert - Experience. How much you benefit from any layer is directly dependant on your own natural talents and work ethics. So you could quite easily have someone with a college degree that is less specific to the work at hand than the same years of experience but they might also have superior reasoning skills and apply less specific knowledge more efficiently. But all said and done take 2 people with the same talents and the one with the lower level is a better choice simply because their knowledge was gained right on the iron itself, you can't get any more specific than that.
My redundant $.02

larkspur

let's also not forget the other side of our occupations. Written communication, research, project\time management, etc..

I beleive experiance is what matters at the end of the day. If all you do is technical then what I wrote above willnot really apply, but at some point in your career you will have to communcate via to managemnet via written documentation. If you have a reports that need to be turned weekly monthly etc then a college degree might be useful here.



You learn alot of these skills in college and not so much on the job. I worked for a consultaning comapny once and I knew the network stuff better than anyone else but could not document a process and procedure to save my life and if the weekly status reports were not already in a template than I woudl have been up the creek. Fortunatley I have half a brain. So when it came time to managemnet projects and perform technicaly I was fine. I have seen others fall right on there sword!!

just my 2 cents......

garv221

ilcram19 wrote:

lol what!!! are you serious i havent meet a CCNP that is unemploy or that is making below 60K yearly.
i really would like for you to compete for a job with a CCNP

I have no Cisco certifications but I am the boss of every CCNP in our company. How does that work?

Mr.Ping

In my opinion. Degrees train you to be able to create a solution and certifications enable you to implement the solutions. The physicist or engineer at cisco labs does'nt need to be a CCIE. Dijkstra certainly didn't. But to implement OSPF on the internet successfully? You might need the CCIE and loads of experience. Bottom line? They both have their place and experience is key.
Does being a boss mean you are better than those under you??

ilcram19

well im a Network Administrator in the IT department, i have a degree on Information and management systems, im 22 yeard old i been working in the industry since i was 14, right now i work in a windows/cisco enviroment for a pretty big company, i'm mean is nothing personal but there is less CCNP than MCSE, in my own experiance school never was hard i went to a couple of national and international competition of science and math that was hard, but on the daily bases anybody can pass school and get a degree come on all i did it was just sit there and i never made a b- u know, like i said i got my degree with out even knowing half of the english that i know now.
i started working last agost on my certs is been harder that schoo i can tell you that much.

What is your job, what kind of company is it (in-house IT department or a solution provider for other businesses), and what do you do day to day? I'm curious, because you make some very strong assertions that sound as wrong to me as someony saying a degree should guarantee lots of money. I take it your personal experience as a Cisco engineer has been different

does that anwear you question

garv221

Mr.Ping wrote:

Does being a boss mean you are better than those under you??

No. Simply answering a question to where it was implied that those without a CCNP cannot compete for jobs with those who have CCNP by proving that untrue.

Aquabat [banned]

I have no Cisco certifications but I am the boss of every CCNP in our company. How does that work?

that doesn't mean you know more than them. It just means you were:

1. either in the company longer
2. kissed some A$$
3. or tried for management opportunities[/quote]

BeaverC32

that doesn't mean you know more than them. It just means you were:

1. either in the company longer
2. kissed some A$$
3. or tried for management opportunities

When did he ever say he knew more than them? He's simply stating that he doesn't have CCNP, yet he can still compete with the best of them. Also, what's with your assumptions? He very well may be more qualified, have leadership skills, etc. Stop making so many assumptions about people you don't know.

Aquabat [banned]

i'm sorry. in my experience, the higher up you are in the management chain, the less you know

dtlokee

Aquabat wrote:

i'm sorry. in my experience, the higher up you are in the management chain, the less you know

I am the owner and manage my company, and I think I am pretty knowledgeable.

I know what you're trying to say. In many large companies people will get promoted to managers not based on their performance or knowledge set, but sometimes based on the fact they bring no value to the department. I managed a team of 20+ programmers in a very large company. The company policy required any employee who wanted to apply for another position in the company needed to get the approval of their manager. One of my better developers applied for a position in another department. This required a meeting between the HR person, and the managers of all the people who had applied for the position. At the end of the meeting the guy who was the biggest screw up was given the new job. Why? Because moving him had the least amount of impact on the existing project teams and didn't wouldn't change project delivery schedules.

The Prize Is Lobster

people do it ass backwards. They get a degree and expect to get handed a Network Admin job. You need to get a piddly cert or two..get whatever job you can, gain experience, and go to school while you're in the role.

an AAS backed with experience and a few certs is a lot more impressive than a bachelors with no relevant work experience.

blargoe

Aquabat wrote:

I have no Cisco certifications but I am the boss of every CCNP in our company. How does that work?

that doesn't mean you know more than them. It just means you were:

1. either in the company longer
2. kissed some A$$
3. or tried for management opportunities

[/quote]
I thought the argument of this thread was MAKING more, not knowing more.

ilcram19

i would prefer to know more than some someone than make more, i think in IT it should be base more on what you know intead of who you know or if you are good kissing A$$.
i would prefer to be reconize for what i know.Kissing a$$ doesnt work for mei really would like to know what people thinking when they do that.

is anybody like that in here?

RussS

Nope, not at all. I have formed the opinion that a large majority of kids go to college for the social side and not the education. As someone who have been an employer in several different fields I have a distinct philosophy about hiring .... I would rather hire someone that can do the job and not just talk about it

snadam

blargoe wrote:

I thought the argument of this thread was MAKING more, not knowing more.

A lot an happen during a 3...CORRECTION; 4 page thread...

The Prize Is Lobster

ilcram19 wrote:

i would prefer to know more than some someone than make more, i think in IT it should be base more on what you know intead of who you know or if you are good kissing A$$.
i would prefer to be reconize for what i know.Kissing a$$ doesnt work for mei really would like to know what people thinking when they do that.

is anybody like that in here?

Ive noticed the higher level of responsibility the position, the less egotistical the people are. I started in a tier 1 helpdesk...full of egomaniacs who just couldnt wait to show you they are right and everyone else is wrong. Moved up to tier 2, it tapered off a lot. Network Support or the Systems Admin positions generally house people who dont kiss ass...they just do what they do, and they're good at it.

networker050184

I don't understand why people think a degree would make you a better problem solver or make you better at anything than someone with out one. The degree doesn't make you any smarter than you would have been without it. You might know a little more, but you can have all the knowledge in the world and zero common sense to implement it. Unfortunatley degrees are a part of our society and a requirement for a lot of positions, but that in no way means you are better than a person with out one. If you think you should make more money than someone who doesn't have a degree even though they are more qualified you will be dissapointed more than this one time in your career.

sprkymrk

IMO (and my opinion only) a college degree is an over rated glorified high school diploma that took an extra 4 years to get. Notice I said over rated, not "easy to get", "useless", or "waste of time". Just over rated - by HR folks and other people who want an easy "standard" by which to measure others. I also disagree with the crap about "you learn critical thinking skills". You heard that from the college recruiters and staff. We all know college grads who can't think for themselves once they leave the structured learning environment of a college campus.

If you've got one, great. Congrats to you because it's something you earned and will have for the rest of your life. It may open doors for you. It is good. I just think it's just an over rated way by which to measure someone's intelligence or character.

Tesl

nice343 wrote:

make more than you do in the same department?

one of my co-workers almost make 90K and has no college degree. He does have CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, CCSP, CCDP, CCIP and recently passed his CCIE written. Hes been in the industry for 11 years.


But that does not take way the fact than he has no college degree I feel people with college degrees should be paid more than people with Cisco certifications

I think this is probably just a troll post, but I'll bite.

We live in a capitalist society which revolves around supply and demand, the more the demand the higher the prices/salaries go. He makes more than you because he is better than you. That's about it.

ilcram19, could you please to god try and write at least half legibly? Your posts about how smart you are lose all impact when the actual presentation of your comments reek of laziness. Take more time and show more respect to those reading your posts please.

FuelInjected

I'm still in school and from learning from the people around me (who all happen to be a couple years older than myself), experience trumps everything! By next year, I'll have a degree and a couple of certs, but I don't have much experience. I don't expect to snag a 70K net admin job the day after graduation. However, there comes a point where the degree comes in handy to break the glass ceiling that people who have loads of experience but no degree/certs may encounter. I think all three have importance, but experience is what matters most.

However, I don't agree with college degrees (I'm talking BA here) being over-rated or a waste of time. That's what some jobs require. I worked my ass off to get this degree, and I'm leagues smarter now than I ever was in high school where I thought I knew it all. I know I don't have the experience, but any company that hires me will see that I will get the job done, no matter what.

bighusker

ilcram19 wrote:

math, science, biology, english, speech.. come on!!! tell me those classes aren't hard all you got to do is sit there at the class room and listen to the teacher's crap; do you really use it? of course not.

Are you serious? I never took a "math" class in college where listening to the teacher was enough to pass the class. Good luck trying to get through Calculus or Differential Equations by just coming to class. As for whether I ever used math...well, I have a Computer Science degree, and math forms a very strong basis for that entire field of study. Most engineers (*real* engineers with degrees in Computer/Electrical Engineering, not MCSEs) would laugh at your assertion that math isn't useful.

You have a very narrow view of college. If you're speaking from experience, then I doubt you went to a very good school. If you aren't speaking from experience, then you don't lend yourself much credibility.

And for the sake of humanity, I hope that English is not your first language. If it is, then maybe you should have done more than "sit there at the class room and listen to the teacher's crap" in your English and Speech classes. If you got a B for writing like that, then please post the name of that college so we can all avoid it. It sounds like an awful institution.

seuss_ssues

bighusker wrote:

ilcram19 wrote:

math, science, biology, english, speech.. come on!!! tell me those classes aren't hard all you got to do is sit there at the class room and listen to the teacher's crap; do you really use it? of course not.

Are you serious? I never took a "math" class in college where listening to the teacher was enough to pass the class. Good luck trying to get through Calculus or Differential Equations by just coming to class. As for whether I ever used math...well, I have a Computer Science degree, and math forms a very strong basis for that entire field of study. Most engineers (*real* engineers with degrees in Computer/Electrical Engineering, not MCSEs) would laugh at your assertion that math isn't useful.

You have a very narrow view of college. If you're speaking from experience, then I doubt you went to a very good school. If you aren't speaking from experience, then you don't lend yourself much credibility.

Well you have to keep in mind that not everyone learns material in the same way and at the same speed. There are classes such as math where i pretty much dont have to study. Sit there and learn the theory from the teacher and then can successfully apply it. There are other classes like English where im 24 years old and still cant use a semicolon.

So just because you found a subject to be hard doesnt mean that everyone will.

bighusker

seuss_ssues wrote:

bighusker wrote:

ilcram19 wrote:

math, science, biology, english, speech.. come on!!! tell me those classes aren't hard all you got to do is sit there at the class room and listen to the teacher's crap; do you really use it? of course not.

Are you serious? I never took a "math" class in college where listening to the teacher was enough to pass the class. Good luck trying to get through Calculus or Differential Equations by just coming to class. As for whether I ever used math...well, I have a Computer Science degree, and math forms a very strong basis for that entire field of study. Most engineers (*real* engineers with degrees in Computer/Electrical Engineering, not MCSEs) would laugh at your assertion that math isn't useful.

You have a very narrow view of college. If you're speaking from experience, then I doubt you went to a very good school. If you aren't speaking from experience, then you don't lend yourself much credibility.

Well you have to keep in mind that not everyone learns material in the same way and at the same speed. There are classes such as math where i pretty much dont have to study. Sit there and learn the theory from the teacher and then can successfully apply it. There are other classes like English where im 24 years old and still cant use a semicolon.

So just because you found a subject to be hard doesnt mean that everyone will.

What math classes are you taking about? Calculus, Differential Equations, Numerical Methods, Discrete Math, or Linear Algebra? Or a high school math class taught at college, such as plain old "Algebra" or "Geometry" ?

In my experience, there are very few people who can coast through college-level math classes and get by without working out problems or doing some additional studying on their own time. Those that can are extremely intelligent. If you are somebody that can simply attend lectures in Differential Equations and that's enough to pass the class, then congratulate yourself as you must be extremely intelligent.

However, even if there are a few that can do this, it's definitely not a general rule of thumb. The OP implied that a college degree consisted of little more than showing up for class and "listening to the teacher's crap." If that's all it consisted of, then a lot more people would have high-paying degrees such as engineering, science, or computer science. I can't recall a single upper-division Computer Science class I took where showing up to class was enough to pass. Some were easier than others, but many were comparable to having a part-time job in the amount of work they required outside of class.

Hell, I don't think it's a stretch to say that in-the-classroom lectures are an extremely small component of college education. If they're the only part of it, then it might be time to consider finding a new school. That's not directed at anyone in particular, especially not you, seuss_ssues.

seuss_ssues

bighusker wrote:

seuss_ssues wrote:

bighusker wrote:

ilcram19 wrote:

math, science, biology, english, speech.. come on!!! tell me those classes aren't hard all you got to do is sit there at the class room and listen to the teacher's crap; do you really use it? of course not.

Are you serious? I never took a "math" class in college where listening to the teacher was enough to pass the class. Good luck trying to get through Calculus or Differential Equations by just coming to class. As for whether I ever used math...well, I have a Computer Science degree, and math forms a very strong basis for that entire field of study. Most engineers (*real* engineers with degrees in Computer/Electrical Engineering, not MCSEs) would laugh at your assertion that math isn't useful.

You have a very narrow view of college. If you're speaking from experience, then I doubt you went to a very good school. If you aren't speaking from experience, then you don't lend yourself much credibility.

Well you have to keep in mind that not everyone learns material in the same way and at the same speed. There are classes such as math where i pretty much dont have to study. Sit there and learn the theory from the teacher and then can successfully apply it. There are other classes like English where im 24 years old and still cant use a semicolon.

So just because you found a subject to be hard doesnt mean that everyone will.

Well due to college entrance exams i got to skip all the easy math classes

What math classes are you taking about? Calculus, Differential Equations, Numerical Methods, Discrete Math, or Linear Algebra? Or a high school math class taught at college, such as plain old "Algebra" or "Geometry" ?

In my experience, there are very few people who can coast through college-level math classes and get by without working out problems or doing some additional studying on their own time. Those that can are extremely intelligent. If you are somebody that can simply attend lectures in Differential Equations and that's enough to pass the class, then congratulate yourself as you must be extremely intelligent.

However, even if there are a few that can do this, it's definitely not a general rule of thumb. The OP implied that a college degree consisted of little more than showing up for class and "listening to the teacher's crap." If that's all it consisted of, then a lot more people would have high-paying degrees such as engineering, science, or computer science. I can't recall a single upper-division Computer Science class I took where showing up to class was enough to pass. Some were easier than others, but many were comparable to having a part-time job in the amount of work they required outside of class.

Hell, I don't think it's a stretch to say that in-the-classroom lectures are an extremely small component of college education. If they're the only part of it, then it might be time to consider finding a new school. That's not directed at anyone in particular, especially not you, seuss_ssues.

No offense taken. I wasnt trying to say im such a math guru, just to state that people do learn differently and have different strengths and weaknesses. You also have to realize that your on an internet board that is geared towards "geeks." I wouldnt be surprised to find several perfect or near perfect SAT/ACT math scores among the visitors. I also wouldnt be surprised the number of people on here that can and do walk through the majority of upper level math and CS classes.

I do disagree on the lecture aspect though. The classes i feel that i took the most out of were the ones with excellent teachers with real world experience. Their lectures were where i actually felt like i "learned" something. I can always go home and read a book to learn something. Its just really nice having someone that knows what their doing explain how it all works.

Aquabat [banned]

dtlokee wrote:

Aquabat wrote:

i'm sorry. in my experience, the higher up you are in the management chain, the less you know

I am the owner and manage my company, and I think I am pretty knowledgeable.

I know what you're trying to say. In many large companies people will get promoted to managers not based on their performance or knowledge set, but sometimes based on the fact they bring no value to the department. I managed a team of 20+ programmers in a very large company. The company policy required any employee who wanted to apply for another position in the company needed to get the approval of their manager. One of my better developers applied for a position in another department. This required a meeting between the HR person, and the managers of all the people who had applied for the position. At the end of the meeting the guy who was the biggest screw up was given the new job. Why? Because moving him had the least amount of impact on the existing project teams and didn't wouldn't change project delivery schedules.

that sucks. my old manager was a total douche

Parmenides

Question,
I have a 4 year degree in Math: computer science (a hybrid degree really). That degree is 5 years old. How does that look to an employer when I have no computer job experience looking for some sort of entry level tech support job?

ilcram19

ilcram19 wrote:

math, science, biology, english, speech.. come on!!! tell me those classes aren't hard all you got to do is sit there at the class room and listen to the teacher's crap; do you really use it? of course not.



Are you serious? I never took a "math" class in college where listening to the teacher was enough to pass the class. Good luck trying to get through Calculus or Differential Equations by just coming to class. As for whether I ever used math...well, I have a Computer Science degree, and math forms a very strong basis for that entire field of study. Most engineers (*real* engineers with degrees in Computer/Electrical Engineering, not MCSEs) would laugh at your assertion that math isn't useful.

You have a very narrow view of college. If you're speaking from experience, then I doubt you went to a very good school. If you aren't speaking from experience, then you don't lend yourself much credibility.

And for the sake of humanity, I hope that English is not your first language. If it is, then maybe you should have done more than "sit there at the class room and listen to the teacher's crap" in your English and Speech classes. If you got a B for writing like that, then please post the name of that college so we can all avoid it. It sounds like an awful institution.

no english is not my first language i actually speake a couple more and you?lol...my first language is spanish but i like learning....
i have a bachelors of management and informations systems im 22 years old ...right now im majoring on biotechnology and after that im planning to jump in to law school just to compite with my wife lol...now like i said i went to national and international sciens and math competitions they majority of the stuff i was tested on you probably havent even heard of it, i know u r saying that getting a degree is hard math, calculus, algebra that is simple stuff specially the material that they cover a colleges or universities, look i went to college same way u did and i got my degree by just sit there at class and bealive alot of people that graduated was clue less about servers or networking hey but they got a degree right lol.
im my personal experiance... certs and experiance will preper you more for your career than just siting at a college listening to the teachears crap

BeaverC32

I love the self-titled "geniuses" we get here in the forums on occasion.

ilcram, if I remember correctly, you failed 70-290 your first time taking it. Let's not go overboard in how smart you are...I found that exam much easier than many of the classes/exams I have seen in college.

ilcram19

yeap and i fail 811 and 821 im not dening that i never did, i posted here that i took 12 certs test and fail 3 u can go back and check and i ask for help all the time in here u can check that too...no why would have to lie about that?...im human i make mistakes i never said i was perfect but just beacuse i fail doesnt mean im not gonna keep trying...i like to learn, i really like to be good at anything i do wut ever it takes even if it mean i have to fail to learn,,,

BeaverC32

I wasn't claiming you were lying about anything...I was just questioning your credibility as to how "easy" college is, because I didn't appreciate you saying that anybody and their cousin can get the same degree I have just by sitting in class like a drone.