does it make you mad when people with no college education..

GT-Rob

I went to college with this guy

Mishra

To answer the question of the thread, it is no. If I feel that my salary is not adequate enough then I know it is time to look for another job. I have a certain number in my head to what I think I am worth and I stick to that. I don't like to stress about what every else makes, as long as I am happy then everything is good.

Now to what seems to be the topic of the thread. What is a college degree really worth and is certifications a better level of knowledge? The answer is none, it is all variable.

My girlfriend right now is trying her hardest and going through college and trying to work. She has a lot of homework and has to try very hard. Another key to note is that she is taking classes at a very fast rate in order to get out of school sooner. This is a subtle difference that really gives a lot of credit to her degree. It shows that she is poised and can take on challenges very well. She has a lot of responsibility and to me, taking classes in a shorten length proves worthiness.

My experience of college was a blow by experience. I attended a technical college and knew everything about the classes before I began. I barely had any homework and didn't feel any challenges WHAT SO EVER. It was a very easy degree for me to get. I think probably about 70% of the class was dumb and was able to get a degree just because of how easy it was. Most people coming from this college should never get hired.

I know people who have went to major colleges only for social reasons and/or because their parents made them go. They would **** all the way through college and graduate drunk and with a 3.1 GPA. I also know people who would go to the same college and really try and should be respected.

You really cannot generalize due to personal experiences. In a statistical matter, I believe that a higher percentage of people go through college without gaining any real skills or knowledge. But just because the percentages are different doesn't mean that you can discredit those who are working hard right now to get their degrees (PH D, doctor, all kinds of people who make more money than you).

What we can definitely say is something everyones says around here: degrees get you the job, certifications get you the skills, and experiences gets you both.

cbigbrick

I went to college and got a degree thinking I was going to become a licensed engineer. So in that perspective, a college degree is necessary and for many other professions it is as well.

I got out of civil/construction in 2000 right when the IT bubble broke. Worked my way from a PC Technician to up to a Windows Engineer and along the way went to IT classes and took a few certifications. I’m currently working on a few more.

I have met many IT people that have neither a degree nor certifications and have no problems in doing the IT work. And I’m not suggesting that everyone is like that either.

I don’t brag about having the degree and I don’t knock people who don’t. If they are more proficient and have more IT skills than I do, I try and get with them to better myself and the project. Because I worked in the construction field for over 10 years, I have the mentality to get things done based on the resources available. People love to work with me.

Now because I live in the Washington, DC area, people without a degree are mostly overlooked for people that have degrees (BS) in Computer Science, Engineering, etc. Next would be experience then certifications. It’s very hard to find a person in the white collar world in this area that do not have a degree. That’s just the way it is. But the biggest plus I have found is networking with colleagues and friends for referrals and future jobs. Those happy hours sure do help.

Now, let us think about people that have no technical degrees (BA) like history, psychology, philosophy, etc. Are you going to knock them too??

So back to the guy with 11 years experience and many Cisco certs, if he can do the job and can work well with others…KUDOS to him!! I’d love to work with that guy!!!

cbigbrick

I went to college and got a degree thinking I was going to become a licensed engineer. So in that perspective, a college degree is necessary and for many other professions it is as well.

I got out of civil/construction in 2000 right when the IT bubble broke. Worked my way from a PC Technician to up to a Windows Engineer and along the way went to IT classes and took a few certifications. I’m currently working on a few more.

I have met many IT people that have neither a degree nor certifications and have no problems in doing the IT work. And I’m not suggesting that everyone is like that either.

I don’t brag about having the degree and I don’t knock people who don’t. If they are more proficient and have more IT skills than I do, I try and get with them to better myself and the project. Because I worked in the construction field for over 10 years, I have the mentality to get things done based on the resources available. People love to work with me.

Now because I live in the Washington, DC area, people without a degree are mostly overlooked for people that have degrees (BS) in Computer Science, Engineering, etc. Next would be experience then certifications. It’s very hard to find a person in the white collar world in this area that do not have a degree. That’s just the way it is. But the biggest plus I have found is networking with colleagues and friends for referrals and future jobs. Those happy hours sure do help.

Now, let us think about people that have no technical degrees (BA) like history, psychology, philosophy, etc. Are you going to knock them too??

So back to the guy with 11 years experience and many Cisco certs, if he can do the job and can work well with others…KUDOS to him!! I’d love to work with that guy!!!

blargoe

Mishra wrote:

You really cannot generalize due to personal experiences.

+1000000

Thread over.

garv221

Aquabat wrote:

I have no Cisco certifications but I am the boss of every CCNP in our company. How does that work?

that doesn't mean you know more than them. It just means you were:

1. either in the company longer
2. kissed some A$$
3. or tried for management opportunities

You forgot #4. Work hard and earned my way. While you were home sleeping, I was at the office knocking out those countless projects and system transitions.

Aquabat wrote:

i'm sorry. in my experience, the higher up you are in the management chain, the less you know

Ah, I go it so the farther down the chain you go the smarter people get? Sounds like you have little experience then. For me not knowing anything, I've engineered and configured a 3000 user all Cisco network that stretches across an entire state. Went from blueprint, to Cisco rep to Router, PIX, switches, packeteer shaping, vpn, wi/fi and Window servers. Also, do you think my boss who is the CEO knows what I do or how I do it? Do you think he cares? Your quote makes no sense to me.

Infinite93

One thing I don't think has been addressed yet is the impact SOX has had on hiring. In the larger companies, HR is vetting all applicants against a qualification/job requirement matrix. If you are already in the job role, you are safe, but unless you have a specific degree level (in short list of fields) some jobs simply are not open to you.

Thanks to the new rules, I have been taking 12-15 credit hours per semester on top of working full time. In a few months, my BS in IT will qualify me for my own job at a 20K pay cut. Another couple of years and a MS in CS later, and I will finally get the chance for a real upgrade, instead of yet another 'lateral transfer'.

Working Fortune 500 can be great, but at the same time, a shift in something like accounting rules can really nail you.

drainey

Alright to edit my earlier post, I don't think a degree is worthless, my wife is a Divisional Finance Director of a very large hospital (and CPA) without her degree she would be no-where or a payroll clerk at best. Probably a 60k difference annually in salary between those two as well. So a degree can be super important.

On the other hand my second IT job is where I truly started to learn what it really means to be a systems/network admin and to have to really know IT inside and out to do your job. I got that job not because I had some college but because (as he put it) my boss could tell that I eat, sleep and drink IT. My lack of a degree was never even considered.

For my current job, it was my experience and certifications (gained at job two) that go me hired.

So what does it all mean. A degree is important (but doesn't make you good at what you do) certifications are important (but again they don't make you good at what you do either) and experience is huge but even an insanely experienced tech can be lazy and assine so experience doesn't make you good at what you do either. It's a combination of Knowledge (however it's gained), Dedication, and Attitude that make you good at what you do. And in the end no matter what your field of work, or your education level it is these attributes that your employers will ultimately base your salary on.

druid318

Plantwiz wrote:

nice343 wrote:

make more than you do in the same department?

one of my co-workers almost make 90K and has no college degree. He does have CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, CCSP, CCDP, CCIP and recently passed his CCIE written. Hes been in the industry for 11 years.


But that does not take way the fact than he has no college degree I feel people with college degrees should be paid more than people with Cisco certifications

Nope.

Having a college degree doesn't render one a better worker/employee/troubleshooter. It may have given the individual an opportunity they wouldn't have had otherwise.

Pay/salary is earned...not a right. The only arguement one might have is between men vs. women with the same credentials or race between two with the same credentials.

The unfortunate thing is...it's not a secret women settle for less pay at the inital negotiation (not all, but as a whole). A job is an agreement for one party to work...the other party to provide compensation for the work. If you don't like it....find something else.

But it's completely fair someone who has proven themselve in their field gets paid a handsome salary for their skills.

FWIW

I think alot of women make less money because they are the ones who take time off when the kids are sick. Mom usualy stays home from work more than dad does and I think that hurts women as a whole when it comes time for raises and promotions.

As for a degree...

Having a degree is great. Having certs is awesome. Having boatloads of experience is good as well. When it comes down to it none of these things means you know what you are doing. If someone else is making more money than you it is probably because they know the job alot better than you or they bargain better than you. Period

There are plent of kids who get degrees because daddy pays for college until they graduate , it may take 6 or 7 years but they get there.

There are lots of us who can squeek through a cert with a minimum score and still not be able to fully use the skills measured.

There are TONS of people who have jobs in IT because they got hired during a boom period or have a friend that got them a job in the company.

It all comes down to who does the job the best, who bargains for raises and promotions, and who sometimes just who is a jerk and who isn't.

I don't intend any of this to hurt anyones feelings.

RATTLERMAN

I see the thread has touched a few peoples nerves. The way I have started looking at things in general not specifically "IT" things. It is simply survival of the fittest out here, either you adapt or die. I know it may seem harsh but we live in a society where looking out for # 1 is the mantra from corporate america to politics. Degree vs no degree,certs vs no certs etc etc in the end dont mean a thing. Its all about the hustle and the grind

Megadeth4168

I thought it was time for me to add in my experience...

My current job, which I have been at for almost 5 years full time, I interviewed against 400 applicants. I have no college degree, I have recently started going back to college but I am a ways off still.

Many of the applicants that applied for this job had degrees and certification, many were right out of college. The one thing they lacked was experience. I was even told, after I was hired that there were many people they would have hired over me if they had experience.

In my experience, having work related experience is key. However it is often very difficult to get your foot in the door without certifications or a degree, I admit I got lucky.

With that said, I'm not downplaying a degree at all... If i didn't think it was important, I wouldn't be going back to college.

I do have to say that I have witnessed friends who have a degree but little to no experience, they had a hard time find a job, when they did it was $9 per hour. They are still working their way up. I honestly thought it was funny because they got so arrogant and cocky, rubbing their degree in everyone's face, acting like they were better than someone without a degree.
Remind me to not get arrogant when I get my degree.....

mrj

This thread is something else. I'll sum my reply up quickly.

I have somewhat of a college education, but I damn well expect someone more experienced than I to make more money than I do.

Hell, if you're at my level and have no "formal education" - hat's off to you, because I'll bet it was far more difficult to get your foot in the door than it was any other typical guy with a degree and no experience.

I'll be the first to say that, when I left college and entered the real IT world -- I didn't know jack and was not remotely prepared for what I was put into.

zen master

nice343 wrote: »

make more than you do in the same department?

one of my co-workers almost make 90K and has no college degree. He does have CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, CCSP, CCDP, CCIP and recently passed his CCIE written. Hes been in the industry for 11 years.


But that does not take way the fact than he has no college degree I feel people with college degrees should be paid more than people with Cisco certifications

Is this a prank? 90K for a CCIE, and you think he's being paid too much? Degrees are great, but don't forget how much weight the CCIE carries as well.

UnixGuy

I know idiots who are in managerial positions and make more money that any TE members, and they do absolutely nothing.

My advice is:

Put a plan for yourself, and do whatever it takes to leverage your situation. Your energy is better off utilized for your own good rather wasted on other people !

jamesp1983

dtlokee wrote: »

I'm with you. I paid over 100k for a college degree and it's basically done nothing for me. College degrees are far too generic in many industries and it simply becomes a matter of having one or not. Professional certifications apply to a more specific job role and can provide more value to a company.

I still believe you will get the most money from the triad, college degree, certifications and experience.

Perfectly stated. I made nothing when I came out of college and I spent around 100k as well.

jryantech

jimmypizzle83 wrote: »

Perfectly stated. I made nothing when I came out of college and I spent around 100k as well.

Isn't this... your fault?

If you get a college degree, certifications and can hold your on at a interview. You should have no problems at all landing a job if it is out there. Obviously the current economy is a juggernaut in stopping people from landing jobs. But it comes down to your resume, personality and how you handle yourself.

Degrees and Certifications help getting the job and it's initial pay. Your performance is what gets your more money.

People here can say "Well Bachelors degrees aren't much" or people can say "Well Certifications can be brain dumped". That's great, the alphas of this industry have both Degrees and Certifications.

If you don't want a Bachelors degree that's great. I'll get mine.
If you don't want a Certification that's great. I'll get mine.

sprkymrk

Before anyone starts pulling out quotes from this thread, please notice that 5 posts previous to mine this thread was almost 2 years old.

Daniel333

Wow, this thread predates me.... are we really still doing this? Anyhow, free market... capitalism all that jazz. A degree means nothing if someone if better than you at the job.

phantasm

How do people find these old threads... lol.

CChN

I'm all for getting a degree. Best 5 years of my life came from college: keggers, girls, all-nighters, friends, fast food, cram sessions. It's all golden.

itdaddy

Hey mr nice

I have to agree with all the guys here. Awesome! College sucks! You take a fraction of what you major in and the rest is fluff! As many certs as he has and 11 years he should be making 100K plus per year for what credentials he has..

college is crap any more! I mean yeah you learn stuff but could I as an IT guy with that many certs and 11 years experience do more in IT than a guy with a Masters you betcha!

College is good but overrated it all depends on where you need it. He sounds like and engineer that bust his butt in IT certs expecially the heavy one he has..

I dont think anyone here dogs college..but it is a crap shoot..I say screw college
and get the certs in fact when I am done with my BS degree I am doing the certs till I puke I am not a hypocrite since I am finishing my degree but where I am on the map, they require degrees, certs and experience...some people just get lucky

Sepiraph

I've worked with people /w Master in Networking that didn't know what the hell they were doing, CCIEs that are less than impressive, and someone with almost 10 years industry experience, no degree and just a CCNA who is far more capable than those with Master or CCIE.

Ultimately, I'd say it depends far more than the individual than anything.

UnixGuy

CChN wrote: »

I'm all for getting a degree. Best 5 years of my life came from college: keggers, girls, all-nighters, friends, fast food, cram sessions. It's all golden.

+1

same here !

Kaminsky

Sepiraph wrote: »

Ultimately, I'd say it depends far more than the individual than anything.

+1

One big difference is that someone without higher formal education walks into a job expecting to start from the bottom and work their way up. A lot (not all) people with higher education walk in thinking they know more than most around them and expect to leap into management almost initially. (they are sold on that nonesense whilst at uni)

I left uni and started on a helpdesk for a couple of years. Was the best foundation to a career I could possibly have had. The vast majority of what I learnt at uni has never been used in real life as I chose the support field (especially having to prove by formula that 1+1 does in fact = 2) However, it has helped me climb the ladder faster and take on even imense projects with little fear and bend my head around even complex problems.

Lets not forget that a degree is a 40% pass mark which implies 60% pi$$ up.

skrpune

Kaminsky wrote: »

+1

One big difference is that someone without higher formal education walks into a job expecting to start from the bottom and work their way up. A lot (not all) people with higher education walk in thinking they know more than most around them and expect to leap into management almost initially. (they are sold on that nonesense whilst at uni)

I wouldn't agree with that statement. The same could be said for folks who get a couple entry level certs & think they automatically should be pulling down $45-$55K+.

I think anyone who's realistic & has done their research on their chosen field - IT or otherwise - and who is not overly cocky knows that they can't waltz on in and bring down the big bucks, regardless of whether they have certs or a diploma or both or neither. Although there are exceptions, IT is generally a field where you have to start at or near the bottom until you can prove yourself through experience. Just my humble opinion...

loxleynew

Most everyone now has a degree that doesn't even relate to their actual field. Maybe it's similar but it rarely if ever helps them. A degree to me just shows that a person is willing to stick with something and finish it. Also generally people with degrees tend to have their head on their shoulders more often than not and that is why most managers are required to have some sort of degree.

This isn't to say certs are bad, both are good however there is something to be said for getting a 4 year degree regardless of if you use the information or not. Before you go all rampant and say certs take time too! Sure they do, but not 4 years.

HeroPsycho

skrpune wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with that statement. The same could be said for folks who get a couple entry level certs & think they automatically should be pulling down $45-$55K+.

I think anyone who's realistic & has done their research on their chosen field - IT or otherwise - and who is not overly cocky knows that they can't waltz on in and bring down the big bucks, regardless of whether they have certs or a diploma or both or neither. Although there are exceptions, IT is generally a field where you have to start at or near the bottom until you can prove yourself through experience. Just my humble opinion...

+1

IMO, when you think about it, certs and degrees for employers are to help simplify determining who has the skills and knowledge required and who doesn't. What's important is whether or not you have the required skills.

I don't mean to say this to discourage people from getting degrees or certs. Those are vehicles to help you learn, but if you're just trying to get the degree or cert and not actually learn, then you shouldn't get the job, and the degree or cert is worthless.

And, the reality is employers do typically use college degrees and certs to determine if you're qualified for the job. It's usually foolish not to pursue them.

If the guy ended up being qualified for the job, then good for him.

bubble2005

You also got to remember demographics. In some countries, companies give first preference to persons with a degree and vice versa in another country. I would say obtain BOTH, to ensure that you are in safe keeping, to travel anywhere and be confident, ALONG WITH EXPERIENCE. I'm only 20 and I'm not embarrassed to say I have no experience, HOWEVER i'm getting it now working and in college full time. I wouldn't be surprised of how much I make if its less than 50k. I live in the Caribbean, no biggie to me. If you love the job and not the money, the money will come, but if you love the money and not the job, my friend you will be in for a big surprise. The guy with all of those certifications I respect WITH 11 years of experience, that is a huge accomplishment. IMO I encourage all folks to obtain both degree and certs if you can. Also keep in mind that with college you have additional courses along side your major. He probably wanted to fully concentrate on Cisco only instead of wasting time. He did his homework, research, and prepared his future. No one is the same. Just do you..