CompTIA Certification Renewal Policy
Comments
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steve13ad
Member Posts: 398 ■■■■□□□□□□
Well, you have to figure that no one was going to renew their certs when they were good for life, so they'll definitely have more income now then they would have before
While I do think the way they're going about this is a bit absurd, I really don't get the outrage. They're entry-level certs, so you'll (hopefully) be beyond that point by the time they expire. I'm kind of confused as to why people are talking about class-action lawsuits and filing complaints with the BBB.
While I agree with you in part, the policy change is border line bait and switch.
Many people, myself included, were only interested in Comptia certifications because they were considered lifetime certifications. We paid for and earned these certifications as lifetime expiration, and now in order to generate revenue their diddling with our earning potential and future job opportunities. -
dynamik
Banned Posts: 12,312 ■■■■■■■■■□
I hear you. I know that many people (myself included) often cited the lifetime validity as a justification for their higher cost. -
steve13ad
Member Posts: 398 ■■■■□□□□□□
Comptia needs to ask itself why would anyone spend twice to sit for one of their exams, than for a Microsoft or Cisco?
One good thing has come out of this, it's kinda forced me to look at MS and Cisco certs. Their'll help me more in the long run than any crappy Comptia cert. -
ElvisG
Member Posts: 167
I for one will not be ever taking another CompTIA test. This is completely absurd. I paid for my CompTIA test and took them because I just wanted to be certified to get my foot in the door. I'm just glad that the company I work for don't care about CompTIA certs but MS and Cisco only.
I even would travel to the local colleges to speak to the A+, Network+, and Security+ classes to talk about how much of an benefit it would be for them. CompTIA had a great policy but now just ruin it being greedy. I'll guess I will just stop doing that.
Why would anyone pay more for an entry level cert when they can just pay for a cheaper and more recognized MS cert now? What lured me to CompTIA first was the never expiring cert. -
janmike
Member Posts: 3,076
captobvious wrote: »
A load indeed! I cannot see anyone of any intelligence being taken in by this. We have lost a lifetime certification, plain and simple. But, they are only basic level certs, and I used them to get my "foot in the door." So, I suppose they were worth the cost of the exams for that reason only, but advanced certification in Cisco, Red Hat, and Microsoft, or even Unix, is the way to go. I was going to pursue Linux+, but I won't do it now, because I am sure that eventually all CompTIA certifications will have to be renewed.
I would encourage those who want a front door entry, pursue the MCDST for starting. If someone wants to pass a good exam for a "feel-good feeling", I think that Brain Bench exams will do that for you for $49.95. They are timed, and so difficult to **** on, and you can post a link to them for someone else to review, if you want to do that. An employer can even use the system for its own in-house testing system.
Good luck to all, whatever your decision may be concerning CompTIA Certifications."It doesn't matter, it's in the past!"--Rafiki -
Bl8ckr0uter
Inactive Imported Users Posts: 5,031 ■■■■■■■■□□
A load indeed! I cannot see anyone of any intelligence being taken in by this. We have lost a lifetime certification, plain and simple. But, they are only basic level certs, and I used them to get my "foot in the door." So, I suppose they were worth the cost of the exams for that reason only, but advanced certification in Cisco, Red Hat, and Microsoft, or even Unix, is the way to go. I was going to pursue Linux+, but I won't do it now, because I am sure that eventually all CompTIA certifications will have to be renewed.
I would encourage those who want a front door entry, pursue the MCDST for starting. If someone wants to pass a good exam for a "feel-good feeling", I think that Brain Bench exams will do that for you for $49.95. They are timed, and so difficult to **** on, and you can post a link to them for someone else to review, if you want to do that. An employer can even use the system for its own in-house testing system.
Good luck to all, whatever your decision may be concerning CompTIA Certifications.
You know what, I was very pissed about it but I am not so mad. If they fix the recert progress (IE earning X cert vender recerts Y cert comptia cert) I am ok with that. It really isn't all that bad and if the comptia certs aren't worth my time in 2-3 years then I won't recertify. Personally A+ and N+ are not going to be worth it but S+ may be worth it (if I don't have SSCP by then). To everyone with comptias, stop getting so upset. Recertify or Certify, it is still your choice. I think this could be a good thing. Comptias cost less than the CCNA (and others) and no one complains about that. -
steve13ad
Member Posts: 398 ■■■■□□□□□□
Yeah, the "interview" just salitifies what a crock this is.
Their trying to blame the ISO for the policy shift. But the recommendations that created the policy change were from 2008 and were recommendations only.
My certs pre-dated the recommendations, Net+ (2001) and Sec+ (2005), so I'm just out of luck!
Its a dumb move, and they've successfully alienated their customers. You can tell they don't have much faith in the new policy, they've turned the comments off on their blog! -
steve13ad
Member Posts: 398 ■■■■□□□□□□
You know what, I was very pissed about it but I am not so mad. If they fix the recert progress (IE earning X cert vender recerts Y cert comptia cert) I am ok with that. It really isn't all that bad and if the comptia certs aren't worth my time in 2-3 years then I won't recertify. Personally A+ and N+ are not going to be worth it but S+ may be worth it (if I don't have SSCP by then). To everyone with comptias, stop getting so upset. Recertify or Certify, it is still your choice. I think this could be a good thing. Comptias cost less than the CCNA (and others) and no one complains about that.
Actually the CCNA is cheaper (only 8 bucks). But you know when you sit for it, it's only good for 3 years. When we sat for our Comptia certs it never expired. That's why we're upset. -
Norbie
Member Posts: 105
um...Because we didn't get what we paid for! We paid for exams because we thought we were getting lifetime certifications.While I do think the way they're going about this is a bit absurd, I really don't get the outrage. They're entry-level certs, so you'll (hopefully) be beyond that point by the time they expire. I'm kind of confused as to why people are talking about class-action lawsuits and filing complaints with the BBB."Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill -
Bl8ckr0uter
Inactive Imported Users Posts: 5,031 ■■■■■■■■□□
um...Because we didn't get what we paid for! We paid for exams because we thought we were getting lifetime certifications.
No offense but...
I studied for the certs because I wanted to be a better IT pro. I paid for my certs because I needed them for my then job and future jobs. The lifetime thing was an after thought. If you did comptia strictly because they were lifetime then you have missed the point and value of being comptia (or anything else) certified. If you want something that is lasting get a degree. -
captobvious
Member Posts: 648
I get where you are coming from but guess what.....degrees get old too! I guarantee the degree I got in Computer Science back in 1991 has no relevance in the Comp. Sci. world of today. Hell we were still using mainframes for computing. And networking was just a dream that nerds thought would be cool.No offense but...
I studied for the certs because I wanted to be a better IT pro. I paid for my certs because I needed them for my then job and future jobs. The lifetime thing was an after thought. If you did comptia strictly because they were lifetime then you have missed the point and value of being comptia (or anything else) certified. If you want something that is lasting get a degree.
I'm not upset that CompTIA decided to change the rules, it's the principal of the thing. It boils down to this, if you need these certs then get them if you do not then that's fine too. Sucks if you're in a government position but then again your certs are probably paid for you.
Off soap box.... -
steve13ad
Member Posts: 398 ■■■■□□□□□□
While I agree that the certs lose some of their value by never expiring.
Most employers offer no incentives to earn or maintain certifications. So if I'm PLANNING on staying where I am for another 15 years, why should I get an exam that'll expire in three years?
But since no job is ever guaranteed, Comptia's certs were a perfect for a lot of us who wanted to have some certs just in case. And honestly I can't see why anyone would pay their exorbitant prices if they expire after three years.
I've been a SME for a couple of their certifications, and really this is a great opportunity for me to earn some extra cash. But I still don't agree with the was that the policy has been implemented. We should be grandfathered in, or given vouchers to bring our certs to match the new policy. -
dmarsh
Member Posts: 26 ■□□□□□□□□□
The lifetime thing was an after thought. If you did comptia strictly because they were lifetime then you have missed the point and value of being comptia (or anything else) certified. If you want something that is lasting get a degree.
I already had my degree and 7+ years professional experience before I got a single CompTia cert. I absolutely did take CompTia certs over the competition because they did not require recert.
Guess what ? My BSc(Hons) Comp Sci degree from 1995 is still valid, and yes I have been taken by CompTia as a smuck for believing in their word.
They have shown utter contempt for their user base.
I don't think I missed the point, I bought into CompTia's own marketing !
I've disscussed many of the issues here :-
CompTIA Certification Renewal Policy - CertForums
Will you still recommend CompTIA? - CertForums
I think this is a really bad move for all concerned.
By the way perl is spelt 'perl' not pearl, so I guess you've got quite a bit to learn ! -
Bl8ckr0uter
Inactive Imported Users Posts: 5,031 ■■■■■■■■□□
I already had my degree and 7+ years professional experience before I got a single CompTia cert. I absolutely did take CompTia certs over the competition because they did not require recert.
Guess what ? My degree from 1995 is still valid, and yes I have been taken by CompTia as a smuck for believing in their word.
They have shown utter contempt for their user base.
I don't think I missed the point, I bought into CompTia's own marketing !
I've disscussed many of the issues here :-
CompTIA Certification Renewal Policy - CertForums
Will you still recommend CompTIA? - CertForums
I think this is a really bad move for all concerned.
User base? Who is their "user base"? You or the employer that looks at the X+ cert and says "Hey because this person has this, they should know this"....
But in all seriousness, did you listen to the pod cast? Have you read the website? I think that Comptias position is valid. I am not saying I like it but I am saying I understand what they are trying to do.
I just looked on the comptia cert site I see my A+ and N+ has never for the expiration date. I think that is very fair and I wouldn't be surprised if it stayed that way. I am still going to do my Security+ in a few weeks and I am still going to do my Linux+ in about 2 months. In 2013 I plan to be finished or wrapping up my BSCS degree and I plan to have much higher certs than comptia entry level certs. I will either recertify by means of other certs or I will simply list them as expired. The bottom line is that in 3 years you should plan to "mature" in you IT knowledge, skills, AND certs thus complaining about a "entry level" requiring you to, I don't know, actually learn something and say hey this is what I learned should not be an issue. Besides 3 years from now your comptias should be important anyway as you should be on much higher level stuff.
The choice is yours really, as for me, I may end up recertifying for as long as it is valuable but if it becomes pointless to have A+/N+/S+ as "valid" on my resume then I will let them fade away and that will be that.
To answer your question that you posted on you other forum as ling as empolyers think that Comptia is valuable then the X+ certs should be obtained. For government employees/contractors comptia just became a lot more valuable but for other people, not so much..
By the way perl is spelt 'perl' not pearl, so I guess you've got quite a bit to learn !
Ouch Burn
To be fair I typed that at 6:00am will doing a double. I will correct it now sir. -
dmarsh
Member Posts: 26 ■□□□□□□□□□
User base? Who is their "user base"?
Err the people that pay CompTia's staff's wages ? Thats you and me !
I read it all and the podcast, its bait and switch pure and simple. There are many ways they could have met the US DoD requirement without screwing their existing customers.But in all seriousness, did you listen to the pod cast? Have you read the website? I think that Comptias position is valid. I am not saying I like it but I am saying I understand what they are trying to do.
They have been very clear, your certs now expire in 3 yrs (possibly a bit less) unless you fulfill extra requirements that did not exist before, nobody knows exactly how ownerous or costly these changes will be yet.I just looked on the comptia cert site I see my A+ and N+ has never for the expiration date. I think that is very fair and I wouldn't be surprised if it stayed that way.
Dude I have my honours degree from 15 years ago plus 15 years of professional work experience and continual professional development.The bottom line is that in 3 years you should plan to "mature" in you IT knowledge, skills, AND certs thus complaining about a "entry level" requiring you to, I don't know, actually learn something and say hey this is what I learned should not be an issue. Besides 3 years from now your comptias should be important anyway as you should be on much higher level stuff.
The point is I paid for X and I now have Y. I didn't sign up and pay £400+ for this bullshit.
No the choice is not mine, the change is retrospective, I don't have a time machine !The choice is yours really, as for me, I may end up recertifying for as long as it is valuable but if it becomes pointless to have A+/N+/S+ as "valid" on my resume then I will let them fade away and that will be that.
I signed up for a lifetime cert, end of. You are seeing it from purely your perspective, there are thousands of people that signed up for a lifetime deal, some passed many years ago, CompTia have no right to reneign on their promise.
The only choice I now have is whether to pay CompTia more money and jump through bureaucratic hoops, or just write off CompTia and my certs entirely.
Since this is their doing and not mine it will be the later ! -
Bl8ckr0uter
Inactive Imported Users Posts: 5,031 ■■■■■■■■□□
Err the people that pay CompTia's staff's wages ? Thats you and me !
Well seeing how they only made about 500 dollars off of me I hardly call that a livable wage
I read it all and the podcast, its bait and switch pure and simple. There are many ways they could have met the US DoD requirement without screwing their existing customers.
Like??They have been very clear, your certs now expire in 3 yrs (possibly a bit less) unless you fulfill extra requirements that did not exist before, nobody knows exactly how ownerous or costly these changes will be yet.
Dude I have my honours degree from 15 years ago plus 15 years of professional work experience and continual CPD.
The point is I paid for X and I now have Y. I didn't sign up and pay £400+ for this bullshit.
Look at the comptia site. Look under expired for you last your certs. What does yours say? Mine says NEVER. I know what they said but I know what I see as well...No the choice is not mine, the change is retrospective, I don't have a time machine !
I signed up for a lifetime cert, end of. You are seeing it from purely your perspective there are thousands of people that signed up for a lifetime deal, some passed many years ago, CompTia have not right to reneign on their promise.
The only choice I now have is whether to pay CompTia more money and jump through bureaucratic hoops, or just write off CompTia and my certs entirely.
Since this is their doing and not mine it will be the later !
Dude chill out. I complete understand what you mean (as I don't work for comptia and I am just a user of their certs). At first I was a little mad but like I just decided requiring continuing education may not be so bad, and if I don't want to do it, I won't. The choice is yours. If you have 15 years of exp why do these certs even matter to you anymore. If anything I should be bitching more than you as Comptia makes up 2/3s of my current certs. This can really hurt my marketability as I only have a few years of exp. With 15 years of exp and the certs you have this should not get you this upset. The people who are going to be the most touched by this are those still "up and coming" IT pros. -
Forsaken_GA
Member Posts: 4,024
um...Because we didn't get what we paid for! We paid for exams because we thought we were getting lifetime certifications.
Lifetime isn't really lifetime, just like unlimited bandwidth isn't really unlimited
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dmarsh
Member Posts: 26 ■□□□□□□□□□
Well seeing how they only made about 500 dollars off of me I hardly call that a livable wage
Thats a lot of money for a couple of computer based tests. Its a business, many peoples tests will obviously be required to fund one staff member.
They could have produced new certs entirely like MS did, they could produce special recert extension exams like MS did for their security exam for MCSA:S, they could have created dual track exams with two names like CEH / CNDA, they could have provided optional re-cert for only those in the US, I'm sure theres many more, I'm not paid to think about it, CompTia are...
CompTia are legendary at slow website updates...Look at the comptia site. Look under expired for you last your certs. What does yours say? Mine says NEVER. I know what they said but I know what
Yeah you are probably right, but there is a point of principle here.At first I was a little mad but like I just decided requiring continuing education may not be so bad, and if I don't want to do it, I won't. The choice is yours. If you have 15 years of exp why do these certs even matter to you anymore. If anything I should be bitching more than you as Comptia makes up 2/3s of my current certs. This can really hurt my marketability as I only have a few years of exp. With 15 this should not get you this upset.
Why should I bother with any certs ? Why should I trust any cert vendor after this ?
Nobody knows the full details of the CEU system, we won't really know until its been running for a couple of years, who knows exactly what conferences or training courses could count credit, for how much and to what cert ?
All of this to keep what I already had been promised until a week ago ?
This anouncement effectively makes me CompTias b1tch
Like many busy IT people I've got better things to do. -
Bl8ckr0uter
Inactive Imported Users Posts: 5,031 ■■■■■■■■□□
Thats a lot of money for a couple of computer based tests.
Compared to what or whom?They could have produced new certs entirely like MS did, they could produce special recert extension exams like MS did for their security exam for MCSA:S, they could have created dual track exams with two names like CEH / CNDA, they could have provided optional re-cert for only those in the US, I'm sure theres many more, I'm not paid to think about it, CompTia are...
I would love to see like Security+: Linux/Unix Security+:Windows Security+:Networks Security+:Development etc. It would be awesome if they made hands on versions of the test as well.Yeah you are probably right, but there is a point of principle here.
Why should I bother with any certs ? Why should I trust any cert vendor after this ?
Nobody knows the full details of the CEU system, we won't really know until its been running for a couple of years, who knows exactly what conferences or training courses could count credit, for how much and to what cert ?
The CEU system is a bit gray but I am sure that will change (and it better change fast). -
dmarsh
Member Posts: 26 ■□□□□□□□□□
Compared to what or whom?
Security+ is probably the most expensive exam I have ever taken.
Compared to GCSE's, A-levels, HND, BSc, Open University exams, Microsoft exams, Oracle exams, IBM exams, Sun exams, Brainbench exams.
In fact the running costs to hold the academic exams with halls, invigilators, markers, annual exam papers, government accreditation, etc would be far higher than a multiple choice computer test like CompTia, yet the academic exams are still cheaper.
I could have had a bloody good holiday for the money I paid for what will now be worthless pieces of paper. It's bordering on theft.
Can't you go to Cancun for $500 ?
They should at least grandfather existing people in. -
steve13ad
Member Posts: 398 ■■■■□□□□□□
They should at least grandfarther existing people in.
That's all we want is a fair resolution. Grandfather us in or give us a voucher to re-certify. -
dmarsh
Member Posts: 26 ■□□□□□□□□□
Here is directive 8570.1 :-
IT Training Blog: Department of Defense Directive 8570 Update
CompTIA Certifications Approved for Directive 8570.1
Microsoft have ANSI/ISO accreditation even though they don't expire.
ANSI Accredits Two Personnel Certification Programs - Technology News - redOrbit
Wikipedia has CompTia ANSI accredited from 2007. (Ok unreliable source...)Q. Is there a recertification policy for the MCITP credential?
A.
We no longer require a "refresh" or recertification of the MCITP credential within three years. To better meet our customers’ needs, we now retire a certification when mainstream support for the related technology phases out. If you earned an MCITP certification before the policy change, no action is required—the updated policy applies to your certification, which will remain valid until mainstream support for the related technology ends.
So here is CompTia ANSI accredited from 2008 :-
https://www.ansica.org/wwwversion2/outside/ALLdirectoryDetails.asp?menuID=2&prgID=201&orgID=93&status=4
ANSI/ISO/IEC 17024 Guidelines here.
From what I can tell it would be down to CompTia to make their case for or against re-certification, I guess they chose 8570.1 as an argument for. -
janmike
Member Posts: 3,076
You know what, I was very pissed about it but I am not so mad. If they fix the recert progress (IE earning X cert vender recerts Y cert comptia cert) I am ok with that. It really isn't all that bad and if the comptia certs aren't worth my time in 2-3 years then I won't recertify. Personally A+ and N+ are not going to be worth it but S+ may be worth it (if I don't have SSCP by then). To everyone with comptias, stop getting so upset. Recertify or Certify, it is still your choice. I think this could be a good thing. Comptias cost less than the CCNA (and others) and no one complains about that.
I understand you. I am getting calmed down now, but I will still never resort to CompTIA again with these new policies in place. And, for all of my attitude, I do not really need entry-level certificates anymore to get a job, or to feel good. My plan is to move ahead and up in technical level.
I also can see your point with Security+. For all of the study time I spent to pass it, It was the most safisfying of the certs that I have, and it is given a good deal of esteem by a lot of organizations.
Good luck on that SSCP!"It doesn't matter, it's in the past!"--Rafiki -
poriggity
Member Posts: 87 ■■□□□□□□□□
I don't really understand why anyone would REALLY keep their certifications current, unless required by their employer, and usually then, the employer will foot the bill. I JUST aquired my A+ certification on the premise that it doesn't expire ever, then I read this. IMHO, certs are good to have for acquiring a career, but once the career is acquired, is there REALLY a point to keeping your certs up to date? Anyone in the IT world knows that you do A LOT of on the job learning.
ScottA+, 70-270, and working on 70-290 now. Certs are good.claymoore wrote:If you're unzipping your fly to show off your A+, N+ and Sec+, I'm going to ask if it's cold in here. -
dynamik
Banned Posts: 12,312 ■■■■■■■■■□
I don't really understand why anyone would REALLY keep their certifications current
Because it's fun
Actually, most of the other ones that I keep current I do because the technology changes significantly (Server 2003 > Server 2008 ) or a similar cert will renew the one I currently have (CCNA:S will renew CCNA). -
Norbie
Member Posts: 105
No offense but...
I studied for the certs because I wanted to be a better IT pro. I paid for my certs because I needed them for my then job and future jobs. The lifetime thing was an after thought. If you did comptia strictly because they were lifetime then you have missed the point and value of being comptia (or anything else) certified. If you want something that is lasting get a degree.
I'm not taking offense but I detect a snide attitude so don't expect friendliness in the future. For the record I was told get my A+ or I would be fired. I paid for it out of my pocket. I didn't get my company or anyone else to pay for it. I got the other ones I got because yes I thought they too were lifetimes. Once I had a few of those I planned/still plan to purse other certifications like Microsoft and Cisco but yes the ONLY reason I did the Network+ and Security+ certs (again out of my pocket) was to bolster my resume with these entry level certs until I moved onto something with a little more prestige like the microsoft stuff and cisco."Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill -
Norbie
Member Posts: 105
I don't really understand why anyone would REALLY keep their certifications current, unless required by their employer, and usually then, the employer will foot the bill. I JUST aquired my A+ certification on the premise that it doesn't expire ever, then I read this. IMHO, certs are good to have for acquiring a career, but once the career is acquired, is there REALLY a point to keeping your certs up to date? Anyone in the IT world knows that you do A LOT of on the job learning.
Scott
You know I'm going to be a dick and be straight up about it...it's about the money I spent. The career crap will work itself out or it won't and that's not on CompTIA's shoulders it's on mine. But I paid for certifications based on the understanding that the certs were lifetime certs. Now they are not lifetime certs.
I spent 168 dollars on both parts of the A+, 239 dollars for the Network+. 259 dollars for the Security+. I took the 3 of them in a span of a few months.
At the end of the day I don't care if it makes CompTIA certs more prestigious. I went into it knowing they weren't presitigious and that eventually I will need to get real certs like Microsoft or Cisco and not entry level certs. I needed the A+ to keep my job and I partially got the Network+ and Security+ to bolster my resume and to get a raise. This company has screwed me over right and left first with not getting my certificates for 4 months and now this.
Screw CompTIA and whether they are prestigious or not. I just want my money back. I didn't get what I paid for."Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill -
Bl8ckr0uter
Inactive Imported Users Posts: 5,031 ■■■■■■■■□□
I'm not taking offense but I detect a snide attitude so don't expect friendliness in the future. For the record I was told get my A+ or I would be fired. I paid for it out of my pocket. I didn't get my company or anyone else to pay for it. I got the other ones I got because yes I thought they too were lifetimes. Once I had a few of those I planned/still plan to purse other certifications like Microsoft and Cisco but yes the ONLY reason I did the Network+ and Security+ certs (again out of my pocket) was to bolster my resume with these entry level certs until I moved onto something with a little more prestige like the microsoft stuff and cisco.
No attitude here and if you feel that way I apologize. As I read my post I can see how you would get that impression. For the record I do not have my degree yet (working towards it) and I was not trying to sound like an elitest or something, I was just being blunt and honest which is hard to differentiate in a text based medium. I need the A+ for a job as well and N+ was for my then job (which I never got to see the benefit from that job since I left that place). I have paid out of pocket for my certs and I will probably end up paying for everything in my sig as well (if the hr department doesnt gets it act together) so I know where you are coming from. Like I said, I was pissed, for similar reasons but my thing is, 3 years is along time. I am sure you will be much further along in your IT cert path than you are not (god willing and what have you) so you gotta think about it like this: Comptias is not going to be my last cert. The way I thought about it was in 3 years I will have either enough certs to make the comptias no longer worth it or I will study and keep up the comptias, or both
On another note, if comptia said "Ok here is your money back" would you give up the cert? -
poriggity
Member Posts: 87 ■■□□□□□□□□
I agree with you 100%. I don't feel I got what I paid for either, as I was also told that the A+ cert was one that did not expire. That part, I understand. I guess its not THAT big of a deal to me, as I don't really plan on updating or keeping my certs current. It is a bit frustrating though, that we now have to pay more money if we want to stay current.
ScottA+, 70-270, and working on 70-290 now. Certs are good.claymoore wrote:If you're unzipping your fly to show off your A+, N+ and Sec+, I'm going to ask if it's cold in here.
