Why negative feedback to ccna and no experience?

CodeBlox

MrBishop wrote: »

Well, I'm all for getting entry level techs to do more in the working environment but most companies don't give that kind trust to less experienced guys/girls. When companies have $100,000's of dollars on the line when a critical site goes down....then don't want level 1 techs being the primary cause because they want to run a debug command on a production network.

Just curious, how quickly could a debug command bring a network to it's knees? Does something like this really happen? How can one expect to debug if said debugging will "crash" the network device?

MrBishop

CodeBlox wrote: »

Just curious, how quickly could a debug command bring a network to it's knees? Does something like this really happen? How can one expect to debug if said debugging will "crash" the network device?

I would say how about you try it then get back to me!

dead_p00l

CodeBlox wrote: »

Just curious, how quickly could a debug command bring a network to it's knees? Does something like this really happen? How can one expect to debug if said debugging will "crash" the network device?

Fairly quickly from what ive seen before. As far as debugging a production network, you use the proper filters if it's a service impacting situation. Otherwise you wait until a maintenance window for minimal impact if there's an issue.

shodown

CodeBlox wrote: »

Just curious, how quickly could a debug command bring a network to it's knees? Does something like this really happen? How can one expect to debug if said debugging will "crash" the network device?

depends on the vendor and the type of debug. Junipers you can usually get away with debugs that you couldn't get away with on cisco in production without taking a big performance hit. As for personal experience I've been running debugs on a voice gateway on every inbound call for a international call center for about 3 weeks and I've seen the CPU spike about 14 percent which is no big deal considering it never got over 10 percent in the 1st place. During a Tech Refresh of a core site I did decide to run a debug ip packet just to see what it would look like in production. It brought the other routers down, but before it didn't it kept sending out LSA's making the other core routers go bat **** for about 30 sec. We tried to duplicate the results at the next maintenance window which they didn't stay consistent which let us know how un predictable that command can be.

Forsaken_GA

CodeBlox wrote: »

Just curious, how quickly could a debug command bring a network to it's knees? Does something like this really happen? How can one expect to debug if said debugging will "crash" the network device?

You filter the debugs. Cisco debugs can have access lists applied to them.

How quickly it dies depends on how much traffic is going through it. On a Cisco at least (no clue on Juniper), when you turn on debugging, you just forced the router to do cpu processing on all the traffic that cef normally handles. If you're passing a few hundred gigs through the router, most of them can't handle having that much traffic punted to the routing engine, so the box dies horribly.

petedude

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

If you're passing a few hundred gigs through the router, most of them can't handle having that much traffic punted to the routing engine, so the box dies horribly.

Heck, most Cisco CCNA materials, regardless of vendor, warn of the dangers of leaving debuggers in effect for extended periods. I can attest in seeing the difference in performance in what labbing I've done-- even the command line can be a little more pokey while the debugs are running.

I don't about the newer routers, but I know Cisco used low-end CPUs like 486sx processors for the longest time. And why not? They weren't running desktop OSes with GUIs attached, or database services, or even printing. All the work the router CPU had was to help move traffic across interfaces. If you started to ask these CPUs to do a lot of logging (essentially what debugging is in the Cisco world)-- you bog them down quickly.

JustFred

Keep trying, someone is going to give you a chance, someone always does. Not everyone is an ass**. Some people will actually have patience and help you through what you need to know, we all have to start someone. Just because you passed the theory doesn't mean you are not good, with time and help from others you will gain the experience to move on and also help others. Life is just like that. Good luck and godspeed my friend.

Aldur

Debugging, or traceoptions as they're known on a Juniper box, is a very intensive process and should only be used at short intervals to gain specific troubleshooting information by filtering what you are looking for. Only a fool does a debug all, or a traceoptions flag all, on a production router.

bigdogz

MrBishop wrote: »

A CCNA isn't there for configuring a network, but is there to troubleshoot layer 1 or 2 networking networking issues at most. NOC technicians are very limited as to what commands they have access to from the command line. The router is pretty much locked down and the very basic commands such as ping, show controllers, sh ip route, sh log, sh ip int bri, etc, are given to tier 1 technicians. I believe that some hiring managers don't know exactly what questions they should be asking for the job.

I have to disagree with your first statement. Some time ago, (I did not have one at the time) I started at a company and my boss asked if I knew anything about routers and I said, "No". The expectations of this position was to work on servers, routers, switches, and firewalls, not to mention anything that the helpdesk could not fix. When I stated this position there was a pool of when I was going to leave or get fired. After working there a week I realized that there were 8 people at my postion that my boss went through in 2 years. I was number 9.
Foresaken_GA can understand what type of mess
I performed a great deal of designing, configuring, and support. I had to know the OSI layers very well because I was working with lazy people in different groups but it made me better as an engineer/tech. I would have to give the programmers a solution to their own problems while my own work suffered. I was lucky to have a boss that understood and would back me up when my projects were not completed.
I also had to deal with various vendors who would not know what the problem was or where to look to solve the problem when dealing with a router or network issue. After I learned what I had to do I worked with the vendors to prove where the problem was located.
We also had a NOC and level 1 techs that would troubleshoot and configure routers for customers.

I think your experience may be different from mine as a great deal of people just had to learn how to do something from no knowledge and then obtain their cert when they had time.

YFZblu

Honeslty, who cares what people think? You'll encounter many people in your career that think your certifications are an epic waste of time, an will actually respect you less because of it.

If I ended up in an interview with an individual like 'Forsaken_GA' I would most likely get chewed up and spit out; but that's not the important thing. The important thing is that it would royally piss me off and motivate me to achieve a higher level of understanding that I might not have otherwise had. My goal isn't to obtain CCNA-level knowledge. My goal is to know what the hell I'm talking about when my moment comes. Keep working hard.

NOC-Ninja

Debug command should only be used when its the end of production time. The risk of shutting down Cisco devices is very high. I will usually use it after 5pm or 6pm. Although, Forsaken already mentioned that you can you use access-list to filter it. You can actually see this from INE's videos. Just make sure you know what you're doing or you might shutdown production network and end up getting your last paycheck.

Also, CCNA books tells you not to use "debug all" in production since it will eat your a switch or routers CPU resource. Ive tried this in my home lab and it shuts down my switches and routers after 10secs of letting it run. By the time i type "u all", its already too late. lol
My co-worker also did this on a 6500 in production time. He didnt use debug all but it shut down the distribution. He still works with us.

GOZCU

I am working as a Network Admin and i have taken this job after i became certified. i must admit that I have learnt a lotttt in 2 weeks. Even though CCNA is a hard stuff and requires time to get it, there are a lot of things which are not necessary to know to get the CCNA. People are generally don't have enough information about DMZ,Load Balancing, L2Tp,IpSec configurations which are essential to know for an entry level job. If i was a hiring manager i would prefer to hire one who had at least an intern about this field and open mind. Experience is a must for a real job and there are a lot of interns out there to have it...

MrBishop

bigdogz wrote: »

I have to disagree with your first statement.

I understand that your boss (YOUR BOSS) wanted x y z from a CCNA. If he actually seen the curriculum for a CCNA he wouldn't be asking if they can configure firewalls, design, etc. It's not a entry level job with no experience because he's asking for if you have experience. (Getting off the topic) Exactly, why when you apply for an entry level job, you need to go with a big company and not an business with less than 100 employees.

Aligning yourself with a company that internally trains their employees is a plus, not a negative! Everyone can learn something new from the guy next to you if you if he's not an *sshole

Concerned Water

FredWatanabe wrote: »

Keep trying, someone is going to give you a chance, someone always does. Not everyone is an ass**. Some people will actually have patience and help you through what you need to know, we all have to start someone. Just because you passed the theory doesn't mean you are not good, with time and help from others you will gain the experience to move on and also help others. Life is just like that. Good luck and godspeed my friend.

Agreed. I am a sucker at work for people who really want to learn.

MrBishop

@Concerned Water, I think it makes for a better working environment! It creates an atmosphere that makes you want to come to work. I love it when people want to return to school to create a better live for themselves.

afcyung

I find it much easier to work with someone who wants to learn vs someone just going through the motions.

NightShade1

MrBishop wrote: »

Entry level is the topic here, not people with years of experience. Like I posted, my first job was a NOC technician with a large company(worldwide networks), using OSPF & BGP. Calling all parts of the world, working with telecom companies like Orange, AT&T, & Verizon. No, I didn't need to know what the hell LSA's were when troubleshooting downed networks. It all depends on the job and the guy is talking about entry level positions. I don't known any company that is willing to allow someone with just a CCNA with no experience to have full access to a production router in the real world. I'm not referring to people who had years of networking experience and just finally getting around to getting Cisco certified.

Nobody in the room had access to configure routers and we had Tier I, II, & III working side by side. The only people that had full access where the CCIE's upstairs who would periodically allow people to configure an out of production router. Obviously, they gave you the commands necessary to configure it properly.

Well i had access to the access switches, distribution switches and some core switches of the ISP, i was in charge to build P2P circuits and internet circuits... was not really hard... was pretty easy actually.. also was in charge to build BW graphics for the clients, also remove P2P or internet circuits and well troubleshoot them as well...
But thats was the main role i did in there.. I also monitored the network, and get calls from the call center when companies had issues with internet or p2p circuits i had then to troubleshoot what was wrong and fix it.
We were many doing the same thing


Anyways never did nothing wrong as i was really careful with what i did... i actually had the power to shut down thousands of companies internet or p2p circuits if i did stupid mistakes... but like i said i was really careful so my coworkers...

My training was like in the first 2 weeks i had someone that explained me everything, and well i was watching how to do what i had to do... then someone like another week i had someone there monitoring what i was doing and if i was doing it right and then when he felt that i was ok then he let me do things alone....
And that was about it.
Anyways this was just luck i guess... as like most of the companies wont let a newbie touch their core switches or total access to their distribution switches when they know if you do something wrong you can shut down thousands of clients internet for example and make the company loose money...
Anways it was a good experience and i didnt have to do any tech support PC related job.... i jumped over the network world just like it lucky eh? ;P

aashan

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

I speak to people in real life how I communicate in writing. I am blunt and honest. I take pride in my work, and I expect others to rise to my level, I'm not coming down to theirs. I got to where I am through alot of hardwork. I didn't have a patron that greased the way into the network world for me. I did my time as a help desk, as an inventory monkey for a Cisco reseller, and a few other non-network positions before I found my opening.

I am not one of the gatekeepers of cool. I do not want to keep all the work to myself because I need to prop up my fragile ego as the Network God. I *want* people that can do this type of work. I want peers. I want people I can sit down with, start talking about a subject within the field, and the conversation flows as naturally as if we were discussing a football game. I want to work with folks that can point out when I'm having a moment of stupid, or when one of my premises are flawed. I want to work with people who can teach me something I didn't know, or teach me a better way of doing something I did know.

I do not want minions who need their hands held and need to be spoonfed information little bits at a time because they can't handle the influx of information they need to know to do things right. I do not want mendicants. I am sick of cleaning up after well intentioned newbs who, if they put a tenth of the effort into their career as they did their gaming, they'd be top notch engineers.

Now, you may very well turn out to be one of the kinds of folk that I like to work with, but the weight of experience says that's very unlikely.

The number of I's in this reply just proves what luberguilarte was saying

Forsaken_GA

Right, because when aspersions are cast on my character, I should talk in generalities rather than responding directly.

But yeah, you guys caught me. I'm an arrogant, elitist prick. Shocker, huh?

I also happen to be a damn good network engineer who's been around the block a few times. If that kind of thing interests you as a career, it might be worth paying attention. Or you can dismiss me because I want to keep things hard for everyone, or because I don't talk so nice, or because you think I might be the kind of person that wants to kick your puppy.

kgb

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

...
I am sick of cleaning up after well intentioned newbs who, if they put a tenth of the effort into their career as they did their gaming, they'd be top notch engineers.
...

You can subsitute "gaming" with anything else and you describe a majority of people (my opinion anyways). Personally, I'm making the switch from 3D/2D graphics (last 12yrs been doing it full-time) into the Programming world. I am a 100% self-taught artist and I experienced exactly what Forsaken talks about above. People say they want to do X, Y, Z. However, most always have an excuse to why they can't do it. In my experience 9/10 times it's "I don't have the time." I absolutely can't stand that excuse. They have the time, they just don't make it a proirity.

If you want something, go get it. Live it, breathe it. Do it.

I think people are a little harsh on Forsaken to be honest. It's obivious (to me anyways, again my opinion) that Forsaken isn't going to be the guy that you have mentoring fresh recruits. However, he sounds like the guy you'll want mentoring those people that have the drive to exceed and just need some guidance. Again, I could be wrong...maybe he's just a very bad guy:)

YFZblu

I agree - I think people who are hurt or offended by his posts are just being soft.

VAHokie56

I heard on good authority that forsaken has puppy pajamas and kitten wallpaper on his laptop ...networking is tough and you need to have a a steady head to keep up. I have met a lot of people similar to forsaken and also learned a great deal from them.

bigdogz

MrBishop wrote: »

Exactly, why when you apply for an entry level job, you need to go with a big company and not an business with less than 100 employees.

Aligning yourself with a company that internally trains their employees is a plus, not a negative! Everyone can learn something new from the guy next to you if you if he's not an *sshole

One point I failed to make...All of my predecessors had a CCNA and I was the only one to stick around longer than them.

You are correct, I have had help with others in my workplace and I can say it goes both ways.

bigdogz

VAHokie56 wrote: »

I heard on good authority that forsaken has puppy pajamas and kitten wallpaper on his laptop ...networking is tough and you need to have a a steady head to keep up. I have met a lot of people similar to forsaken and also learned a great deal from them.

+1
I heard the puppy pajamas come with footies as well.

Forsaken_GA

VAHokie56 wrote: »

I heard on good authority that forsaken has puppy pajamas...

Yup, and they're made of real puppies too. Only thing a Pomeranian is good for.

zenhound

Every time Forsaken_GA posts I end up learning something. To me that's incredibly valuable. I don't really need someone to hug me or tell me how special I am or whatever.

Also, you asked, so if you didn't want to hear anything other than what you wanted to think, why bother asking?

Plenty of people are able to get jobs with a CCNA and no experience. It may mostly involve sitting at a desk staring at monitoring software waiting for alarms, but it's a job. And I'm sure plenty of people aren't able to get a job with a CCNA and no experience, whether it's because they braindumped or because they're bad in interviews. Or they just suck.

jmritenour

I think IT is one of those kind of fields that is perceived to be significantly easier than it really is. "Herp a derp, I set up my wireless router by myself, that means I can be a network engineer".

I've interviewed plenty of candidates that have underwhelmed me to say the least, but at the end of the day I try to remember that they're still human beings that are just trying to make a living. There have been a few that seemed pretty green, but would've developed well with someone to take them under their wing & give them a little guidance. Unfortunately, workload usually doesn't allow for that - our environment takes a while to get a handle on as is, and when we're hiring, we need people who can get up to speed and start contributing quickly.

But some people - and I'm speaking in general, so OP, please don't take offense - really aren't cut out to work in technology. I know there was a thread going on a few weeks ago, and some people were of the mindset that anyone can be trained to do this sort of work. And that may be true to an extent, but you can also grind the corners down on a square peg and stuff it in a round hole, but that's not exactly where it was supposed to go. To really be successful, you need to have a certain intuition for this sort of thing; you need to be able to adapt & think on your feet, and you need to be able to be able to make split decisions without second guessing yourself.

When I was a kid, I was 100% sure I wanted to be a veterinarian. I love animals, and it seemed like a natural calling. Why am I not a vet, you ask? Because I sucked at biology, and I was just barely above C level at it in high school. Way too much memorization & regurgitation for me. Could I have worked twice or three times as hard to memorize musculature and skeletal structures so I'd be better at it? Sure. But why not play to my strengths, which are analytic thinking and problem solving, and apply them to something else I'm just as passionate about?

DB Cooper

matt333 wrote: »

and dont BS your way through something. "I'm not very familiar with ___" it will save you from sounding stupid.

Words to live by in life.

higherho

I don't think Forsaken is being mean or anything (realistic and that's a good thing). You have not seen mean until you go through a security audit.

bdub

What gets me is I have met many people with X amount of experience and no/few certs that could learn a thing or 2 from going for some certs.

Yes, experience trumps certs in general, but from my experience there are people out there with certs and little to no experience who would be far better choices than some of the experienced people I have met who have no potential to do anything more than what they already know.