State of IT - Biggest problem is the lack of skilled workers

Iristheangel · April 2017

Oh and some more from other social media:

There was one person who did comment on my blog though who made the case that even though the IT field was changing, there were still companies using mainframes and 20-30 year old programming languages and how the H1B program needed to be completely eliminated. I didn't recognize the name so I googled her email address and found that this person had been out of work for 15 years. It's actually entirely possible that 15 years ago, she might have felt that an H1B via holder did steal her job. In the 15 years since was let go, she's been on every anti-H1B forum, facebook group, every Breitbart news comments thread, and all over Twitter spreading the message that she would be employed if it weren't for H1B holders.

Guess what her job was? COBOL programmer. It's one of those things where if that person had taken all that energy she wasted on complaining and put it into learning some new skills and future proofing herself, she would have zero problems with finding a job today.

Mike7 · April 2017

My BS detector was firing up so I asked this guy if he knew CatOS v9. He told me that his whole current environment was CatOS v9. The was horrified when I told him the highest was v8

I actually thought it was another CentOS clone and actually googled for it.

LOL.....

TheFORCE · April 2017

We all know there is a lack of skilled workers, this isn't an issue that only the IT field is facing, there are other fields that are facing the same problem. You are only seeing the results of the problem, but not the root cause. It is true that many people here legitimately want to study and learn and then there are others that dont and resort to other means to taking that certificate that will change their life or so they think.

I agree with you that there is a problem, but I don't see if you offered a solution to the problem. And the solution isnt easy, some of us understand it and try to tackle as much as we can by being on top of things but... Should it be only my responsibility to learn new things and be skilled in new technologies? What should the company i am working for do? Where is their responsibility? It is easy to fault the people, but you should also fault the companies. How many times have we seen posts from people saying "My manager declined my training because it doesnt align with my responsibilities" . Yet these same companies have x and y unfilled positions for months.

What i am trying to say is that, when there is a lack of skilled workers, you create a program to create those skilled workers. This was the case back in the days in many countries and many companies. Not anymore, because training budgets got cut to give more $$ to shareholders, saving a penny above all.

Do not blame the people only, blame the companies too. You interviewed so many people, but didnt hire anyone? I have a hard time comprehending this, was there none of them that showed potential to be trained to fill that gap?

Again, if there is a lack of skilled workers, find those people in your departments that want to learn and teach them! The dividends will pay out later on. Our studying pays off in the long term, the in-house training will pay off in the long term too. However, we all see only short term goals and forget that even for the CCIE level people, they didnt get to where they are in 2 years, someone gave them a chance, someone motiviated them and someone gave them a room to play in and someone offered them training.

If you are lacking skills, train the people, if they dont like it, then hire other people. Simple.

dhay13 · April 2017

The last place I worked was against me getting any certifications or training. They did provide a 3 day crash course on JD Edwards but that was their baby. Anything else I asked about was denied and my manager actually said how much of a waste of time and money it was. He was against any type of education or training. The real issue there was his insecurities and lack of knowledge. He didn't want me to learn anymore than I already knew (as I already knew way more than he did). This was part of his job security strategy.

Iristheangel · April 2017

TheFORCE wrote: »

We all know there is a lack of skilled workers, this isn't an issue that only the IT field is facing, there are other fields that are facing the same problem. You are only seeing the results of the problem, but not the root cause. It is true that many people here legitimately want to study and learn and then there are others that dont and resort to other means to taking that certificate that will change their life or so they think.

I agree with you that there is a problem, but I don't see if you offered a solution to the problem. And the solution isnt easy, some of us understand it and try to tackle as much as we can by being on top of things but... Should it be only my responsibility to learn new things and be skilled in new technologies? What should the company i am working for do? Where is their responsibility? It is easy to fault the people, but you should also fault the companies. How many times have we seen posts from people saying "My manager declined my training because it doesnt align with my responsibilities" . Yet these same companies have x and y unfilled positions for months.

What i am trying to say is that, when there is a lack of skilled workers, you create a program to create those skilled workers. This was the case back in the days in many countries and many companies. Not anymore, because training budgets got cut to give more $$ to shareholders, saving a penny above all.

Do not blame the people only, blame the companies too. You interviewed so many people, but didnt hire anyone? I have a hard time comprehending this, was there none of them that showed potential to be trained to fill that gap?

Again, if there is a lack of skilled workers, find those people in your departments that want to learn and teach them! The dividends will pay out later on. Our studying pays off in the long term, the in-house training will pay off in the long term too. However, we all see only short term goals and forget that even for the CCIE level people, they didnt get to where they are in 2 years, someone gave them a chance, someone motiviated them and someone gave them a room to play in and someone offered them training.

If you are lacking skills, train the people, if they dont like it, then hire other people. Simple.

"Train people" works if you're looking for entry level, introducing a new technology or you have people to take care of your immediate complex projects. However, it doesn't work when a company has a host of complex projects piling up and no senior-level person to take care of them. As I stated in my original post, a business can't realistically be expected to place their projects on hold for 2-3 years while they train someone up and hope that they a) have the willingness to learn past the lip service and b) they have the aptitude to learn.

I'm definitely a strong supporter for employers helping with training costs and investing in talent but realistically, it's not always plausible to expect them to put things on hold while they create the resources they need. Sometimes you can't wait around for a company that will train you and you need to train yourself or at least take the steps in getting that knowledge on your own. In my examples, a lot of the folks we interviewed had a lot of pieces of paper (CCNA, CCNP, CCIE, MCSE, CISSP, Security+, CEH, etc, etc, etc, etc) but they didn't have a fraction of the knowledge they were advertising with those pieces of paper. I can't tell you if work paid for them to get those certs or it was self funded but regardless, they either let their skills get stale or they never learned it in the first place.

Iristheangel · April 2017

dhay13 wrote: »

The last place I worked was against me getting any certifications or training. They did provide a 3 day crash course on JD Edwards but that was their baby. Anything else I asked about was denied and my manager actually said how much of a waste of time and money it was. He was against any type of education or training. The real issue there was his insecurities and lack of knowledge. He didn't want me to learn anymore than I already knew (as I already knew way more than he did). This was part of his job security strategy.

Most companies I've worked with were cool about me studying certifications but it was only the last two gigs that really paid for them. Like I said in the original post, at my first IT job, I took a job as a security guard at nights so I could pay for my certs and study. I definitely don't want people to have to take a second job to pay for certs - that was hell and I don't feel like people should have to have it that rough - but more and more, I'm seeing folks who think that it has to be the company's responsibility to give them time to study and pay for everything. While this is nice when you can get it, sometimes when you're starting out or getting to the level you want to be at, you have to cough up some of your own $$$ and invest your time off of work to make it happen. If your company isn't willing to invest in you, you have to do it and then when you're at the point where you can jump ship to better opportunities (hopefully ones that will invest in you), then do so.

NetworkNewb · April 2017

Iristheangel wrote: »

As I stated in my original post, a business can't realistically be expected to place their projects on hold for 2-3 years while they train someone up and hope that they a) have the willingness to learn past the lip service and b) they have the aptitude to learn.

Just got the phone about 30 minutes ago, was an initial phone interview were I was told I didn't have the experience working on the projects that they were looking for.... Feels bad. To be fair, I know I didn't have the experience but have to try right? It was actually a good conversation and he said he liked what he sees with my growth, and gave me ideas of things I can try work on at my current position that he would want to see. And would let me know if anything comes up that would be more my fit. It was for a Senior Security Engineer position who was going to be leading implementing things in their "new" security dept, they wanted someone with 5 years security focused experience, I only have about a year and a half.

Iristheangel · April 2017

@NetworkNewb - Super cool that he gave you some good ideas. Seems like a good long term contact to have because in a year or two, he might remember you and you can come back to the table saying you took his advice. I hope he gave you his full name so you could add him on Linkedin as a contact. You never know what couple come of that later.

jfitzg · April 2017

You're using your anecdotal experience and a study from a right wing think tank as evidence, all while trying to dismiss other people's anecdotal experience and real research from an actual expert in the field? BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA! The logic is not strong with this one folks...

higherho · April 2017

TheFORCE wrote: »

We all know there is a lack of skilled workers, this isn't an issue that only the IT field is facing, there are other fields that are facing the same problem. You are only seeing the results of the problem, but not the root cause. It is true that many people here legitimately want to study and learn and then there are others that dont and resort to other means to taking that certificate that will change their life or so they think.

I agree with you that there is a problem, but I don't see if you offered a solution to the problem. And the solution isnt easy, some of us understand it and try to tackle as much as we can by being on top of things but... Should it be only my responsibility to learn new things and be skilled in new technologies? What should the company i am working for do? Where is their responsibility? It is easy to fault the people, but you should also fault the companies. How many times have we seen posts from people saying "My manager declined my training because it doesnt align with my responsibilities" . Yet these same companies have x and y unfilled positions for months.

What i am trying to say is that, when there is a lack of skilled workers, you create a program to create those skilled workers. This was the case back in the days in many countries and many companies. Not anymore, because training budgets got cut to give more $$ to shareholders, saving a penny above all.

Do not blame the people only, blame the companies too. You interviewed so many people, but didnt hire anyone? I have a hard time comprehending this, was there none of them that showed potential to be trained to fill that gap?

Again, if there is a lack of skilled workers, find those people in your departments that want to learn and teach them! The dividends will pay out later on. Our studying pays off in the long term, the in-house training will pay off in the long term too. However, we all see only short term goals and forget that even for the CCIE level people, they didnt get to where they are in 2 years, someone gave them a chance, someone motiviated them and someone gave them a room to play in and someone offered them training.

If you are lacking skills, train the people, if they dont like it, then hire other people. Simple.

I give entry level people a chance if those spots are open. However, entry level people should also have a fundamental level of knowledge in that technology as well. If you don't, then you should not expect the company to pick up that dime. The individual is responsible for their career. However, training and investing into a good employee who wants to better themselves or because the company gave you new responsibilities is different.

NetworkNewb · April 2017

Iristheangel wrote: »

@NetworkNewb - Super cool that he gave you some good ideas. Seems like a good long term contact to have because in a year or two, he might remember you and you can come back to the table saying you took his advice. I hope he gave you his full name so you could add him on Linkedin as a contact. You never know what couple come of that later.

For sure.

Funny thing... He actually came to me and contacted me through LinkedIn about the position. So just an FYI for those that don't believe LinkedIn can help, there are good jobs that happen from there!

Iristheangel · April 2017

jfitzg wrote: »

You're using your anecdotal experience and a study from a right wing think tank as evidence, all while trying to dismiss other people's anecdotal experience and real research from an actual expert in the field? BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA! The logic is not strong with this one folks...

I think the point is that there's always anecdotal stories to go around on both sides. As far as the study, here's another one for you: https://www.glassdoor.com/research/h1b-workers/

You could say there's definitely studies on both sides of the argument but as I said all along, there's not really a lot of stories on here of massive amounts of people who were personally laid off because of H1Bs. I'm sure we can find one or two but for the most part, this isn't someone people are posting about on a weekly basis as something that is directly affecting them. It's more news stories and the big bad boogeyman we should be scared or something that should be politicized. As someone who has interviewed at the last two jobs and currently works with over 100+ medium and large sized businesses in a densely populated area (Socal), I have seen that almost every customer I'm working with desperately needs mid- to senior-level folks and they've come to me and other coworkers asking for help finding people or recommendations because most of the folks they get in interviews don't have a iota of the knowledge they claim to have on their resume.

You can blame external factors for the reason why someone can't get a job and sometimes it really is things that are out of our control on a situational micro-level, but on a macro-level, there are things that most people can do to help themselves in this field. Many people stated the reason they have problems is they interview poorly and get nervous - there are ways to help and improve that. Company won't pay for your education? Learn where you can, self-study, and gtfo when it's time to get the next level job if you have the skill and your company won't promote you. The path (or paths) one can use to excel in this field are usually simply, but not to be confused with easy.

As an add-on to this post, I also created a list of free or low-cost IT training. Happy to add to it if anyone has some good suggestions: List of Free or Low-Cost IT Training

jfitzg · April 2017

Iristheangel wrote: »

I think the point is that there's always anecdotal stories to go around on both sides.

No, the point is you flat out stated there is a shortage of skilled IT workers and used your ANECDOTAL experience as proof, all while dismissing everyone else's experiences as anecdotal...

Iristheangel wrote: »

As far as the study, here's another one for you: https://www.glassdoor.com/research/h1b-workers/

It took me less than 30 seconds to find the fatal flaw in this study.

To answer this, we looked at a large sample of salaries from H1B visa applications and compared them to similar U.S. salaries reported on Glassdoor.

This study relies on VOLUNTARY and UNVERIFIABLE data, this study is in no way shape or form a TRUE representation of US worker's salaries, or even US workers salaries (whats stopping H1Bs from entering their salaries in? Nothing!). This study would get laughed out of any peer reviewed journal (and any journal with an impact factor of >.0001 would laugh at this as well).

Iristheangel wrote: »

You can blame external factors for the reason why someone can't get a job and sometimes it really is things that are out of our control on a situational micro-level, but on a macro-level, there are things that most people can do to help themselves in this field. Many people stated the reason they have problems is they interview poorly and get nervous - there are ways to help and improve that. Company won't pay for your education? Learn where you can, self-study, and gtfo when it's time to get the next level job if you have the skill and your company won't promote you.

You can keep repeating this mantra that "people can help themselves", and you arent entirely wrong, but when 75% of STEM graduates cant find jobs in their fields, its a problem, and H1Bs certainly ARE part of this.

If you want to read some actual REAL VALID PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH on this, I have included a few peer reviewed studies below. If you want to keep on living in a fantasy world where because your company probably put out a piss poor job description, there is some magical shortage of skilled IT workers, be my guest...

H-1B Visas, Outsourcing and Body Shops: A Continuum of Exploitation for High Tech Workers.

Berkeley Journal of Employment & Labor Law. 2017, Vol. 38 Issue 1, p1-47. 47p.

DOI:10.15779/Z38QJ77X6H

Losing the Best and the Brightest: The Disappearing Wage Premium for H-1B Visa Recipients

Vanderbilt Journal of Entertainment and Technology Law. Summer, 2015, Vol. 17 Issue 4, p1051, 34 p.

ISSN: 1942-678X

Exploiting dreams: H-1B visa fraud, its effects, and potential solutions

University of Pennsylvania Journal of Business Law. Summer, 2011, Vol. 13 Issue 4, p797

ISSN: 1945-2934

Iristheangel · April 2017

jfitzg wrote: »

No, the point is you flat out stated there is a shortage of skilled IT workers and used your ANECDOTAL experience as proof, all while dismissing everyone else's experiences as anecdotal...

It took me less than 30 seconds to find the fatal flaw in this study.

This study relies on VOLUNTARY and UNVERIFIABLE data, this study is in no way shape or form a TRUE representation of US worker's salaries, or even US workers salaries (whats stopping H1Bs from entering their salaries in? Nothing!). This study would get laughed out of any peer reviewed journal (and any journal with an impact factor of >.0001 would laugh at this as well).

You can keep repeating this mantra that "people can help themselves", and you arent entirely wrong, but when 75% of STEM graduates cant find jobs in their fields, its a problem, and H1Bs certainly ARE part of this.

If you want to read some actual REAL VALID PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH on this, I have included a few peer reviewed studies below. If you want to keep on living in a fantasy world where because your company probably put out a piss poor job description, there is some magical shortage of skilled IT workers, be my guest...

H-1B Visas, Outsourcing and Body Shops: A Continuum of Exploitation for High Tech Workers.

Berkeley Journal of Employment & Labor Law. 2017, Vol. 38 Issue 1, p1-47. 47p.

DOI:10.15779/Z38QJ77X6H

Losing the Best and the Brightest: The Disappearing Wage Premium for H-1B Visa Recipients

Vanderbilt Journal of Entertainment and Technology Law. Summer, 2015, Vol. 17 Issue 4, p1051, 34 p.

ISSN: 1942-678X

Exploiting dreams: H-1B visa fraud, its effects, and potential solutions

University of Pennsylvania Journal of Business Law. Summer, 2011, Vol. 13 Issue 4, p797

ISSN: 1945-2934

Yes, it must be my company and most of the larger companies in the Los Angeles area's fault. The job description was horrible and they all suck at evaluating resumes.

As I stated, there's plenty of studies on both sides. Want me to link some more and start disseminating the ones you provided so we can get into a research pee-pee contest? I'm all for eliminating abuses of the H1B program but I'm not for throwing the baby out with the bath water. If they wanted to increase the wage of H1B workers for starts, I'd down with that. "75% of STEM" accounts for all disciplines, btw. Not just IT. As you can see here: https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2015/article/stem-crisis-or-stem-surplus-yes-and-yes.htm

So, jfitzg, how many jobs have you lost due to H1Bs? Would you say that they are the reason you cannot find a job or that your wage is lower personally from this? To be clear, if you are to say yes to any of these questions, what certifications do you hold, years of experience and location are you in?

Iristheangel · April 2017

Also, here's the links to the research studies you mentioned for all to read:

http://www.jetlaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Drago_Final.pdf
"Exploiting Dreams: H-1B Visa Fraud, its Effects, and Potential Solutio" by Jessica F. Rosenbaum
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2827789

Under the study "Losing the Best and Brightest," the author of the study admits the following: The technology industry’s demands for highly skilled workers remain largely unmet. Amidst concern regarding domestic unemployment rates and job creation, four of the largest high-tech companies in the country—Intel, Microsoft, IBM, and Oracle—had a combined ten thousand job openings in 2013.

Must be all those poorly worded job descriptions, eh? Let's go on.

Scholars are concerned about the wage outcomes of H-1B visa holders, particularly in the technology industry. However, studies
on the wages of H-1B visa holders find conflicting results. Some suggest that the high demand for these foreign workers has resulted in increased wages for H-1B visa recipients. Others report stagnant wages, which suggests that the industry is simply hoping to capitalize on a cheap source of highly skilled foreign labor.

The research study finishes with the following conclusion:

H-1B visas are a valuable source of high-skilled labor that strengthens the US economy and provides a way to avoid labor shortages in fields that require technical knowledge. The current bill before the House—the Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013—offers little change to the H-1B process, other than increasing the visa cap. These visas have the potential to radically improve the immigration system for high-skilled labor should they be put to their highest use

I would agree with that. There's some value in them and I'm for doing away with abuses and putting their talents to use in the places they need to. Section 2.C of the study you added seems to refute your own point:

The H-1B program also raises significant questions about labor participation and compensation among both foreign and domestic
workers. Several economic studies have looked at the compensation of H-1B visa holders relative to domestic workers, but their findings are inconsistent. Contrary to the popular belief that foreign workers are a cheap source of labor for US firms, Mithas and Lucas find that non-US citizen information technology (IT) professionals earn a significantly higher wage than domestic IT workers, suggesting that foreign IT professionals and domestic workers are complements. The study also found some evidence that restrictive visa policies and lower visa caps result in higher salary premiums for those with a work visa. Other studies have found that H-1B visas benefit the companies who employ them.

Later in Section III:

After restricting the sample to only those who report a positive total income, interesting trends emerge in the data. In 2003, H-1B workers had slightly less total income than domestic workers.157 H-1B workers in the technology industry earned more than both H-1B workers not in the technology industry and all domestic workers.158 In 2010, H-1B workers earned more than their US-born counterparts by a significant amount, while H-1B workers in the tech industry earned slightly less than all H-1B workers.

Again, my post wasn't suppose to be political. I'm for eliminating any abuses which the writer of this study clearly states that they want to do - not throwing the baby out with the bath water (which the author doesn't want to do as well).

Let's go to the second and third studies you provided. The authors again don't try to make a point that there isn't a skills gap. They don't, in my opinion, make a very good argument that employers are currently paying specifically IT workers less - they stress the points on how they could pay them less, lack of oversight, how they could be made to work longer houses. The authors instead provides a case that there are abuses citing legal cases, the logic behind the abuses and how they could be continued, and calls for an end to the abuses by adding more government oversight and random auditing on the program - not a call to end the program. Cool. As I said in my original post, I'm for ending abuses. I'm not really sure how this goes against what I originally posted though since I was neither advocating for more abuses or less oversight. The original post was about a lack of skilled workers which study 2 and 3 had nothing to do with. It was about lack of skilled workers.

Your responses to my original post were inappropriate in the context of the thread. My original post was meant to highlight the lack of skilled workers in the IT field. You said that I failed to offer solutions yet throughout this thread, I have tried to offer solutions. For the folks that had issues with interviews, I didn't tell them to suck it up. I actually did try to provide them with solutions. I also posted a few days ago on my blog a collection of free or near-free training resources which I've continuously updated with additional suggestions for the folks that do have a problem with paying for training. You also stated I was illogical and then jumped to the assumption that our job descriptions were poorly worded which is something you can neither know or confirm. You may not like the H1B program for your own reasons, but try to put down the pitchfork for a moment and read the rest of what I was writing instead of seeing just red.

blargoe · April 2017

Iristheangel wrote: »

Most companies I've worked with were cool about me studying certifications but it was only the last two gigs that really paid for them. Like I said in the original post, at my first IT job, I took a job as a security guard at nights so I could pay for my certs and study. I definitely don't want people to have to take a second job to pay for certs - that was hell and I don't feel like people should have to have it that rough - but more and more, I'm seeing folks who think that it has to be the company's responsibility to give them time to study and pay for everything. While this is nice when you can get it, sometimes when you're starting out or getting to the level you want to be at, you have to cough up some of your own $$$ and invest your time off of work to make it happen. If your company isn't willing to invest in you, you have to do it and then when you're at the point where you can jump ship to better opportunities (hopefully ones that will invest in you), then do so.

I used to think like that to a point in youthful ignorance. I do think company should have a willingness to invest their resources maintain a certain base skillset and enhancing/improving where the potential benefit to the company outweighs the cost/risk. Most companies worth their salt follow this, but have managers in individual teams/departments who do not buy into it.

But an IT professional (or any professional) should not make their own professional development contingent on their current company fully subsidizing it. Several hundred to several thousand dollars over several years is a small price to pay for doubled or tripled salary down the road.

I bill my company to reimburse VMware, Microsoft, and Storage certifications. I am paying my own way for Linux, AWS, and any online courses/books/etc for coding, because these are not things in scope for my current role at my current company. If I had to fund my own certifications entirely, I would still do them; I might would be more judicious in timing and make some different budgetary decisions.

swamprat · April 2017

I definitely agree on this. Company funding education is nice, and I have a pretty good setup in that respect, but even if they don't, there are things that I've found important enough to fund myself, with cash or loan (in the case of my MS).

Sometime in growing up, you have to take responsibility for your own life and career. No more blaming someone else that you didn't get a job you wanted. No more complaining that parents/government/employer won't pay for something you want (can't call it a need, because if you really needed it, you'd make it happen with or without help). No more excuses. Anything worth having is worth working for, and conversely, no matter how much funding/training material/etc an employer throws at their employees, it's all a waste if they're not willing to work.

boxerboy1168 · April 2017

The conclusion I've drawn is that the most talented employees are often vilified and pushed out by "comfortable" managers who don't wish to be challenged. The current corporate culture for most companies isn't about challenging employees and bringing people out of their comfort zones. Managers far to often push out people who excel and challenge the status quo in exchange for talentless quiet unchallenging and uncompetitive employees who do what their told and ask no question. In todays corporate culture challenging authority is frowned upon rather than valued and seen as a an asset for growth potential. If you want to see higher levels of technical skill and proper leadership in your senior and executive level positions encourage competition and reward challenging and competitive behavior rather than run from it.

UncleB · April 2017

boxerboy1168 wrote: »

The conclusion I've drawn is that the most talented employees are often vilified and pushed out by "comfortable" managers who don't wish to be challenged.

Nah, it is more often the talented employees who feel entitled and unrewarded by these managers for one reason or another then frequently take it as a personal attack.

boxerboy1168 wrote: »

Managers far to often push out people who excel and challenge the status quo in exchange for talentless quiet unchallenging and uncompetitive employees who do what their told and ask no question.

So long as these lacklustre employees get the job done, why would the manager want to tolerate a diva "talented" individual? It is not nearly as black and white as you put it.

boxerboy1168 wrote: »

In todays corporate culture challenging authority is frowned upon rather than valued and seen as a an asset for growth potential.

It has always been this way. The odd company is better than this but overall it reflects the world we live in.

Remember that the managers are frequently techies who couldn't cut it as specialist techies so they often rise to their positions by default rather than being trained or having a natural ability for it. Right or wrong it just happens and all the bleating in the world won't change it.

Don't forget that half the time the "talented employees" are socially maladjusted and lack people or communication skills that cause a lot of grief for their managers, especially when they believe they are so hard done by. See both sides of the coin.

You can't change it so learn to use it to your advantage if you can and become that manager you think they should be then get some honest feedback from your underlings and see just how poorly they see you. At least then you can get them to do all the work while you earn more than them LOL. You may just make a difference but keeping all the people happy all the time just isn't possible.

TheFORCE · April 2017

I'm sure if a company puts requirements that people need to learn and train, there will be more skilled workers. How about setting aside 1-2 hours a week to learn stuff or to shadow a more experienced person? How about gettimg a subscription to cbt nuggets or udemy and allowing all your IT people to use it, regardless of what level or job they are doing. So many different options. How about going to highschools and colleges and recruiting people and growing them from young age.Once a year see if any of them has progressed enough to move to the next level.

Few years back and still in a few countries the professions are past from the parents down to the kids. That doesn't look like its going to continue much longer, so we need to find other ways to train people. Just pointing at the problem doesny solve the problem, you have to contribute to the profession and grow it. Seems like people have forgotten this.

But like I mentioned early and you brought it up again the fact remains that companies are looking short term on what makes their company run now and not what will make their company run in the future or 2 years from now. So when it comes to IT more and more companies arw looking for people that can come in anf start running things.

There will always be a lack of skilled workers if we dont create skilled workers through different programs either government or company sponsored programs.

Funny thing is, I haven't seen anywhere the NSA or FBI or CIA claiming they are lacking skilled workers, because once they get you, they starr training you.

triplea · April 2017

I think this sums it up

( Keep in mind I've just offered to study for both CSA+ and SSCP, only asked them to pay for the exam as I paid for the Sec+. I assist the InfoSec team from a production team )

dontstop · April 2017

NOC-Ninja wrote: »

Some are just doing day to day work and chill on the weekends.
Some are there to ride out the wave and retire. Id say they are 80% that dont study anymore.

To be able to understand and really answer interview questions, one must read and lab everyday until he/she gets it. Studying sucks. I understand it. You dont get paid for studying. I dont blame anyone from not knowing everything.

In most places I've worked there has been a lot of resistance against those who push for change. Most are happy to do the bare minimum to stay afloat and this goes right up the chain. Pushing for change causes *pain* for not only your manager but also his manager and so on. This is why sometimes the best workers are pushed out/away from areas because the culture is poor in certain divisions. I've found you really need to be smart about how you approach those issues because although your new ideas may seem logical, from their point of view what your doing is making them do more work and that's not their goal.

I've found a common trend in some of the sports I play too. Some people are just *casuals* and want to play at the level they're comfortable with and not push beyond that. I think you really need to make your peace with that and move on. So many times I've been frustrated that why people don't push themselves to be better but you have to just accept the reality that not everyone is as interested in their sport/jobs as you. I've instead come to realize maybe I need to use that energy to push myself to improve and teach others as a byproduct (as in the end it helps me and the company)

Like you said, this fact alone proves that if you're even somewhat motivated to improve your skills there will be plenty of chances for you to get a job and shine above the vast majority.

blatini · April 2017

I think the bigger problem is that people are scared of change. The last thing they want to do is cause an outage and be held responsible. "It's worked for X long - why bother?" You just have to earn their trust and show that you can handle it. Most people come around eventually and if they don't it's probably best to start looking elsewhere. I've worked at two different places where our edge router had 2+ years of up time. The place that never came around to letting me do simple updates is the job I promptly moved on from. Places like that will get you nowhere and they are unfortunately more common than most people think.

blatini · April 2017

jfitzg wrote: »

No, the point is you flat out stated there is a shortage of skilled IT workers and used your ANECDOTAL experience as proof, all while dismissing everyone else's experiences as anecdotal...

It took me less than 30 seconds to find the fatal flaw in this study.

This study relies on VOLUNTARY and UNVERIFIABLE data, this study is in no way shape or form a TRUE representation of US worker's salaries, or even US workers salaries (whats stopping H1Bs from entering their salaries in? Nothing!). This study would get laughed out of any peer reviewed journal (and any journal with an impact factor of >.0001 would laugh at this as well).

You can keep repeating this mantra that "people can help themselves", and you arent entirely wrong, but when 75% of STEM graduates cant find jobs in their fields, its a problem, and H1Bs certainly ARE part of this.

If you want to read some actual REAL VALID PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH on this, I have included a few peer reviewed studies below. If you want to keep on living in a fantasy world where because your company probably put out a piss poor job description, there is some magical shortage of skilled IT workers, be my guest...

H-1B Visas, Outsourcing and Body Shops: A Continuum of Exploitation for High Tech Workers.

Berkeley Journal of Employment & Labor Law. 2017, Vol. 38 Issue 1, p1-47. 47p.

DOI:10.15779/Z38QJ77X6H

Losing the Best and the Brightest: The Disappearing Wage Premium for H-1B Visa Recipients

Vanderbilt Journal of Entertainment and Technology Law. Summer, 2015, Vol. 17 Issue 4, p1051, 34 p.

ISSN: 1942-678X

Exploiting dreams: H-1B visa fraud, its effects, and potential solutions

University of Pennsylvania Journal of Business Law. Summer, 2011, Vol. 13 Issue 4, p797

ISSN: 1945-2934

I really am confused why you're unnecessarily acting like a holier than thou jerk?

Iristheangel · April 2017

triplea wrote: »

I think this sums it up

( Keep in mind I've just offered to study for both CSA+ and SSCP, only asked them to pay for the exam as I paid for the Sec+. I assist the InfoSec team from a production team )

I'm all for jobs providing training but it's not always realistic. If they have an immediate need for a mid-level or senior-level engineer, you can't put business projects on hold while you train someone up for 2-3 years while you home grow your own senior level engineers.

TheFORCE · April 2017

Iristheangel wrote: »

I'm all for jobs providing training but it's not always realistic. If they have an immediate need for a mid-level or senior-level engineer, you can't put business projects on hold while you train someone up for 2-3 years while you home grow your own senior level engineers.

If we had looked ahead, and had that training program in place 2-3 years ago yoy could have used that home grown resource by now. So instead we continue in the same unproductive ways and 2-3 years from now we will be looking for another person with experience in another technology because 2-3 years prior we didn't train the right resources.

NetworkingStudent · April 2017

I never lost an opportunity to a H-1B . In fact most jobs I see say they won’t sponsor the visa.
Here are the problems I see in IT:

1)A student gets a Cyber Security degree, and they think they can instantly work in info sec.

2)Colleges not having any direct paths or guidance for students.

For example, how can someone with just an A+ cert get a help desk job, however; someone with a college with a 2 or 4 year IT degree really has to struggle?

Comptia provides A+ training through their foundation “Creating Furtues”, and you can get a IT job, ;however others with an IT degree struggle to find a help desk Job. ( I think this program is great idea) See the link below:
First IT-Ready Class of 2017 Graduates with Jobs in Hand

3) Some companies want certs and other don't, why can't certs for certain positions just be the norm?

Iristheangel · April 2017

TheFORCE wrote: »

If we had looked ahead, and had that training program in place 2-3 years ago yoy could have used that home grown resource by now. So instead we continue in the same unproductive ways and 2-3 years from now we will be looking for another person with experience in another technology because 2-3 years prior we didn't train the right resources.

Not necessarily. As mentioned in other threads, even when employers have offered things like free training, free CBT Nuggets, etc, most did not take advantage of these programs that were offered. Maybe 1 or 2 grabs hold of it but everyone else just lets it sit by: http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/126245-new-york-offer-free-college-tuition-families-making-less-than-125k-3.html
I've met folks using learning credits to take a week long class so they could get out of work for a week.

Offering training is not the silver bullet to the skills gap. It's a potential partial solution but only if people actually have the motivation to learn.

Iristheangel · April 2017

TheFORCE wrote: »

Funny thing is, I haven't seen anywhere the NSA or FBI or CIA claiming they are lacking skilled workers, because once they get you, they starr training you.

This would be incorrect:
http://www.bizjournals.com/baltimore/news/2016/10/20/nsa-director-cybersecurity-talent-pipeline-remains.html
In Fierce Battle for Cyber Talent, Even NSA Struggles to Keep Elites on Staff - Nextgov.com
https://news.clearancejobs.com/2017/01/11/director-nsa-dni-call-flexible-pay-cyber-warriors/
U.S. Cyber Command struggles to retain top cybersecurity talent | CIO
https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2015/01/07/fbi-in-tough-competition-for-cybersecurity-talent/
https://www.cebglobal.com/talentdaily/fbi-mulls-softer-hiring-requirements-for-cybersecurity-talent/

PocketLumberjack · April 2017

Iristheangel wrote: »

Not necessarily. As mentioned in other threads, even when employers have offered things like free training, free CBT Nuggets, etc, most did not take advantage of these programs that were offered. Maybe 1 or 2 grabs hold of it but everyone else just lets it sit by: http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/126245-new-york-offer-free-college-tuition-families-making-less-than-125k-3.html
I've met folks using learning credits to take a week long class so they could get out of work for a week.

Offering training is not the silver bullet to the skills gap. It's a potential partial solution but only if people actually have the motivation to learn.

I watch my coworkers who have a subscription to Safari Books Online (which is amazing) game/browse between calls and wonder why they are stuck on the Help Desk... You can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink.

State of IT - Biggest problem is the lack of skilled workers

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